Litespeeds Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1356862 I have a question in regards to timing and scoring on a race this past weekend. I just looked on MyLaps.com and noticed that I finished in the 23rd position but while I was racing, I crossed the start/finish with a waving white flag indicating it was the last lap. Unfortunately my car broke down during the final lap and I was not able to cross the start/finish again. That means I should have finished in the 26th position. My question is: 1) Does the race results go by what is posted on MyLaps.com? 2) Could it be that the person at the start/finish did not get the information to wave the correct flag at the right time? I don't understand how everything works but this is very important because this will affect what the outcome will be for the season end standings. Thanks for your prompt responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck T. Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 sort by class . from there it looks like you did not complete 12 laps so you finished in 4th. first car 1 lap down. so you were leading all of the other cars one lap down when the race ended for them. as for where to look . rmr uses http://944spec.org/944SPEC/content/view/43/26/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryW Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 We have a seperate Green, shouldn't the checker be timed to our race not the 911 Spec ? Surely the finishing order is who passes the start finish AFTER the checkered flag flies - Sid never passed the checker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 The race timing starts when the FIRST green is waved and the first car crosses the start line. Any car that completed the race and got to the checkers should be classes ahead of a car that did not reach the checker on the final lap with one exception as follows: If a car is laps down to the car that quit on the white flag lap, they would be classed below it even though it did not get to the checker. In other words, if a car completes 12 laps and dies and another completes 11 laps at the checker, they finish behind the other car. What I don't know is how the following would be handled. Since we are racing with other classes, there could be a situation where one car crosses the start with a white flag and they are ahead of another, same class car. Before the second car crosses the start, the race leader crosses and everyone then gets a checkered flag so the second car stops racing. The first car was ahead at the start line and completed the same number of laps as the second car but does not complete their final lap for some reason. In that case, who won? It would seem that the second car would have been able to complete the "final" lap except for the checker and should be classed ahead of the car that broke but I do not know how the offical finishing order would be. That, of course, is an issue with multi-class racing. I will look forward to hearing how it comes out. Big Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM05 Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Without really studying the results in great detail, I would say that Sid was the first driver to complete 11 laps, of those drivers who completed 11 laps or less, and thus he shows as the highest-finishing driver to not have completed at least 12 laps. In Sid's case, he only completed 11 laps because he broke down on his 12th lap. In the cases of others, they only completed 11 laps because they (potentially) got lapped by the overall race leader (NOT the class leader) at some point during the race, and thus only crossed start/finish 11 times during the race before the checkers flew. It is possible to take the checkers but still finish behind somebody who didn't take the checkers. Could that be what happened here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Sid, All seems fine to me. You finished the race with 11 laps at a time of 24min 48 seconds. The other guys behind you completed 11 laps as well, but finished them in 24min 58 seconds plus. So by the book you completed a greater distance faster. Now here is the deal is that you were the last car in line before the group leader went by. He was a 24min 49 seconds when he finished (many laps infront of course). Still you were the last car before the white flag. Did the leader pass a few cars when he was finished (post his checker), but on their white flag lap? If so that is tough, but if you as racer never see the checker just keep going until you do. If you let the group leader lap you on your last lap and you pull in to the pits you have given up that last lap. I had it happen once where I in battle and the group leader passed me and the other car I was racing just after we passed the white he got the checker. We just kept racing and were the last cars to finish the race on track. So you may have broken down, but still completed more laps in a shorter time than the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeeds Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 Thanks everyone for your responses. This thing is really confusing Ken is talking with Jerry Kunzman to clarify everything. This whole matter is under review. Jerry Kunzman and T&S are investigating mylaps.com which is just a hosting site. NASA can issue a correction. Masuo already confirmed to Ken that I broke down on the white flagged lap. I think the main discussion here is to see how accurate timing and scoring is and where do you base the finish point of the race. Everyone knows that you need to cross the checkered flag in order to finish a race so bottom line, I did not cross under checkered so I should have finished in a lower position than what is indicated on MyLaps.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryW Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 So all of the arguments presented that say the results make sense would mean that a pass made on the last lap between 944s would be irrelevant. Sid passed Start/Finish at the beginning of the white flag lap before I did. I however passed Start/Finish at the checker before he did (he never passed the checker in fact). This is the same as if I had made a pass during the final lap. Sid never lapped me. How can it be said that he finished before I did ? (And there was one other car between Sid and me). I believe that the Marker for the checker in the T&S computer is in the wrong place and that all the remaining field finished (crossed Start/Finish at the Checker) in front of Sid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM05 Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Jerry, Those are great points. Nobody is saying that a pass between 944's that are both on their last lap does not count. However, in mixed-class, timed sports car racing it's not always that simple, as each person's last lap isn't always the same numbered lap for each. According to the results on MyLaps, the overall leader clocked his final lap at 24:49.371. Sid clocked what would would be his final lap (lap 11) at 24:48.294 - just one second before the leader took checkers. You clocked your final lap (lap 11) at 25:21.373, roughly 30 seconds after the leader took checkers, which means that you did get lapped by the overall leader before he took the checkers, whereas Sid did not (though in reality it looks like the leader lapped both of you once, and Jerry an additional time). So, Sid completed 11 laps before you completed 11 laps. The fact that Sid did not come around to take checkers at the end of his 12th lap (a lap that you did not get to start due to the relationship of where the overall leader was compared to you when the checkers flew) is not relevant. This is just my viewpoint from looking at the numbers - it is entirely possibly that NASA may come back and find the computers to be in error, but based on simply the MyLaps results it's possible that the computers are not in error. It is absolutely not necessary to take checkers to finish the race, so there is no reason why sombody who didn't take checkers has to, by default, finish behind somebody who did. In timed racing it's about how much distance did you go in the alloted time. Another helpful thing to ask would be whether T&S kept a manual record of each car's position as it crossed the finish line at the end of each lap. Some regions do this, but I don't know if they all do. That manual record can be helpful in situations like this, as it can account for who was in front of who at the end of each lap. In this case, I would bet that the manual record would show Sid in front of Jerry at the end of lap 11, with neither of them completing 12 laps. Which to me would mean that the results should show Sid finishing in front of Jerry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec944#74 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Gary is absolutely correct that it is not necessary to get the checkered flag to finish the race. One other small point of clarification is that in many regions, including AZ, timed races start when the pace car goes on to the track, not when the green flag is thrown. One of the reasons for this is simply to keep to the race schedule. If there is an incident on the pace lap, or the group isn't formed up properly and gets waved off and has to do another lap, etc., the time for the race doesn't get extended, the race is shortened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 ... Everyone knows that you need to cross the checkered flag in order to finish a race so bottom line, I did not cross under checkered so I should have finished in a lower position than what is indicated on MyLaps.com. No... Not true at all. NASA defines a finisher has anyone completing 50% of the laps of the leader. Class leader in fact. So class leader did 12 lap so all finishers completd 6 laps. You DO NOT NEED TO CROSS THE CHECKERS TO BE A FINISHER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I believe that the Marker for the checker in the T&S computer is in the wrong place and that all the remaining field finished (crossed Start/Finish at the Checker) in front of Sid. This may be the problem. If T&S did stopped the race before you guys saw the checker (while all of you were on lap 12) then you should scored 12 laps not 11. In that case it is wrong. However if on that last lap you pulled in the pits before crossing the T&S strip for the 12th time you results go back to lap 11. Now here is what could have happened. Sid is on track during lap 11 in front of you guys and the group leader was behind Sid and infront of you as he was lapping traffic. Sid gets the white. You should be getting white, but never see the white only the checkers on lap 11. Why? 24 min 49 sec the race is "over". At this point all cars on track crossing the finish line after 24min 49 sec are considered finished. Now if that was your lap 11, then you only completed 11 laps. If you still ran one more lap fine, but the race was done. Sid was still on a hot lap and secheduled to complete 12 laps. He broke down and only completed 11. Still his 11 were done faster than your 11. So that is the best I can say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeeds Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) They changed my position of the race now and put me finishing 26th with only completing 10 laps. The leaders in our group finished 12 laps but they never lapped me until I broke down on the final lap. I think this is still not right but I guess I will accept what is now posted. Thanks everyone for chiming in and giving me your input. Edited October 30, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryW Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I believe that the Marker for the checker in the T&S computer is in the wrong place and that all the remaining field finished (crossed Start/Finish at the Checker) in front of Sid. This may be the problem. If T&S did stopped the race before you guys saw the checker (while all of you were on lap 12) then you should scored 12 laps not 11. In that case it is wrong. However if on that last lap you pulled in the pits before crossing the T&S strip for the 12th time you results go back to lap 11. Now here is what could have happened. Sid is on track during lap 11 in front of you guys and the group leader was behind Sid and infront of you as he was lapping traffic. Sid gets the white. You should be getting white, but never see the white only the checkers on lap 11. Why? 24 min 49 sec the race is "over". At this point all cars on track crossing the finish line after 24min 49 sec are considered finished. Now if that was your lap 11, then you only completed 11 laps. If you still ran one more lap fine, but the race was done. Sid was still on a hot lap and secheduled to complete 12 laps. He broke down and only completed 11. Still his 11 were done faster than your 11. So that is the best I can say. I saw the white flag, Sid, the checker and then Sid again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Maybe it would help to state that once the race leader crosses the line and gets the checkered flag the race for completed laps is over. If you crossed the line before the leader takes the checker, even if it's by only one foot, you get to finish that lap and get scored for it. I believe it was earlier this year?, a much faster Honda was coming up through the field and had the opportunity to pass one or both of the 2 leading 944's on the front straight, who were fighting for the win at Willow Springs. The Honda had his race in the bag. If he had passed the 944 in 2nd and NOT the leading 944, then crossed the line to take the overall race win, the leading 944 would have been able to complete one more lap and get scored for it, while the trailing 944's race would have ended immediately and he would have been given credit for his last completed lap-----not the one he just partially completed. The leading 944 gets 12 laps in the books. The second place 944, even though he was only 100 feet behind, gets scored for completing only 11 laps. Fortunately, and quite gentlemanly, the Honda clearly sensed the situation ahead and backed out of the throttle to let the 944's finish as they would on their own. So, everybody who has started a new lap as the race leader takes the checkered flag gets to finish that lap-- and it counts! If the race leader takes the checkered flag at 12 laps complete and you've only completed 11 and 9/10ths laps, you get scored for only 11 laps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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