RockLobster Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Being that most NASA rules either spec a tire or the points system is directly tied to the tire size (not the rim size). How are the various classes affected by the enduro rule which states basically any DOT legal tire you can fit on your class rim size is legal.... My question is specifically for PT....but am curious how this translates the other classes running in my E2 enduro class.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I believe (but could be wrong) that in instances of conflicts such as your example that precedence is given to the class rules. IE that you must use what is first legal for your PT class and only then can you use the special enduro considerations. I'd look closer at other sections and see if there is a statement along those lines. I don't have the pdf's handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted November 29, 2009 Author Share Posted November 29, 2009 (edited) My concern is basically if PT classes are held to the tire that allows them to fit in a specific PTx class (by points adjustments from both size and compound/make/model) for their enduro class mapping they are at a disadvantage to the classes that have a spec wheel and tire. If classes like 944 spec and spec miata can just switch to Hoosiers and up their tire size as they see fit it obviously is an advantage. For instance a PT car having to keep a PT class pointed tire would have to compete against a spec miata who could switch to a 225 (or 205 even) Hooiser. The miata if parallel classed in PT would maybe bump into PTD, and thus E1, gets to remain in E2. This is just an example, for the sake of argument lets ignore the tire wear factor. But if the tire is truly "open" then that actually tips it in favor of the PT car who can just run whatever DOT tire and rim they can make work on the car.... Perhaps a rules supplement for PT endoro class mapping (and other classes where necessary) that specifies a psudo-class rim size? Edited November 29, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Perhaps a rules supplement for PT endoro class mapping (and other classes where necessary) that specifies a psudo-class rim size? that'd be really tricky to do - especially if you specify the diameter as well. I know one of the things I am looking at this offseason is a 15x8 or so to put a 205 on to stretch it out to 225 size to save points. If you specify a 7" wheel for PTF / E2 do I have to go up a class even though its only a 205 and within points limits? I'd be curious to hear from Greg, JWL, or whoever does the Enduro stuff on this one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weed Wacker Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I know that some of the 944 spec guys here in the midwest run enduros with their car registered as GTS1. Since both classes both cross into E2, they just take advantage of the fact that GTS has a more open ruleset. It allows them to run wider hoosiers vs their skinnier toyos. Maybe the way a spec miata crosses into PT they still have some points left on the table to run the hoosiers? Its actually not so much of spec classes getting a break as it is taking advantage of a car being eligible for multiple classes at that point. I know my prelude for instance crosses into PTC with like 9 points left over. So if i were to run enduro's i could just say its a PTC car and run cams and 245 hoosiers (the car runs 245 toyo right now). Thus still being legal for E1 (I believe, if i remember correctly...) with more power and more grip than before. Otherwise you could also say that i would otherwise be at a disadvantge if i ran in straight H2 trim since im leaving power and grip on the table compared to a similar PT car. Sorry if i completely missed the point of your post just kind of went on a rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Your example actually further's my point. It's not so much the NASA sprint spec class rules that i think are the issue here. It is the way the enduro tire rule is written that does not make sense to me. It seems like the rule was modeled for SCCA class mapping and not really for the NASA open classes like PT, GTS, etc... My basic question is of course can a PTx car just run whatever tire they want when competing in enduros? I like the idea of relaxing the tire rules when enduro racing to even out the class mapping, as long as it is fair to all the classes coming together in one enduro class. It is a pretty big question when it comes to PTx. Our car is a PTE car. The class tire size is 235. We have 4 points to use for tires on our car. Thus we can run anything from a 255 street tire to a 205 Hoosier R6. If i understand all the rules correctly. I can enter this PTE car into the sprint races with a 205 R6, and at the same time enter it into enduros as a PTE car with 255 street tires. Per the enduro rule we could then run a 255 hoosiers in their place. Same tire size as what we are allowed in PTE by taking 4 pts for +20mm but claiming a 0pt tire. This is why i brought it up for discussion. Some options of course are: 1. Require everyone to use their spec tire or the tire rules per their class. (eliminate the free upgrade rule) 2. Have an enduro class wheel size max. (7" for E2, 8" for E1, etc...) Then leave the rule as written to open it up to all DOT tires. 3. Have an endoro class tire size points system similar to PT. (seems like a real PITA) et. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weed Wacker Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 This is why i brought it up for discussion. Some options of course are: 1. Require everyone to use their spec tire or the tire rules per their class. (eliminate the free upgrade rule) 2. Have an enduro class wheel size max. (7" for E2, 8" for E1, etc...) Then leave the rule as written to open it up to all DOT tires. 3. Have an endoro class tire size points system similar to PT. (seems like a real PITA) et. al. OR You could make a classification form stating you run 255 street tires in PTE sometimes and then TAKE ADVANTAGE of the free upgrade rule as its written! This is what your talking about right? 3.3. Class legality 3.3.1. Cars (as represented) must meet their respective class’ technical rules, except that all cars may run any D.O.T. approved tires that fit on the mandated wheel size for their class (unless otherwise specified). ES and ESR cars may also use non-D.O.T. approved race tires (i.e. slicks) on any wheels. Legends cars must run the spec tire for their class. To me that says "run 255 wide R6's on RockLobster's PTE car!" Then if anyone asks you show them your classification sheet and show them this rule. Asking to change this is saying you want them to slow your class down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 ok, I looked at it closer and that looks like a pretty big loophole sitting there wide open for anyone using the PT ruleset to transfer over into E_ classes. Seems like if you wanted you could say you classed your car based on 175 width street tires, spend those points on other stuff, and then use the enduro tire allowance to run whatever tires you wanted to. If there was a note beside the PT classes saying "must use class legal tires" then that loophole would close. That'd be something to write a letter on actually.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Sure, I could do that. Then I am sure the rule would be changed very shortly to be less advantageous than if i start a discussion with fairness in mind to clarify/supplement the rule so it is fair to all competitors. Personally i hope it lands somewhere in the middle. I would love to just be able to run a 225 or 235 (base PTE tire size) longer wear tire like the RA1 or Nitto. Which, due to points, i cant run in PTE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 ok, I looked at it closer and that looks like a pretty big loophole sitting there wide open for anyone using the PT ruleset to transfer over into E_ classes. Seems like if you wanted you could say you classed your car based on 175 width street tires, spend those points on other stuff, and then use the enduro tire allowance to run whatever tires you wanted to. If there was a note beside the PT classes saying "must use class legal tires" then that loophole would close. That'd be something to write a letter on actually.... I assume you would do the same to GTS cars etc? Don't you think that would put PT cars at a disadvantage to spec cars who can upgrade based on this rule? To me, it should be you use your spec or class legal tire or you don't. No preferential treatment to spec classes vs more open classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 GTS is very very open as far as ruleset - its basically meet whatever hp/weight depending on which GTS class you aim for and which tire (DOT or open) you choose to run. I personally would like to see ALL classes run on their class-legal tires, esp given the ease of "converting" a Spec car to a PT/ST/STR/SU car, but thats just me. I wrote a letter to Jerry Kunzman ([email protected]) about the PT "loophole" but I might be writing a second one now that you mention that last point - it does seem to make sense to ask either everyone to be on their class-legal tires or let it be wide open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weed Wacker Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 How would you prove its NOT a PT/ST/GTS etc. car though? Realistically, while it would be nice, i think it would be impossible short of looking at the past couple finishes the car has made. Since PT/ST is open to all cars, its just someone elses fault for not looking into if it makes them faster. I think the free upgrade rule was intended to get more spec guys to join the fray without complaining that PT have an advantage. But it's either let them bitch or open up the rules. Seems they chose the lesser of two evils... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I'm not sure how your region has been running their enduros, but I know with NASA-TX's last 8hr they ran at Texas World Speedway that I had to claim in writing before the race started which class/ruleset I was using to classify myself into the Enduro class I was running in. (In my case I stated that I was using PTF to classify myself in E2 since I wasn't using anything special outside of my sprint race setup) several other classes have interesting notes beside their listing, some of which seem to override 3.3.1, for what its worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weed Wacker Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 We claim a class as well. My point is that as long as you have a classification sheet filled out who's to say your not able to follow that ruleset? Example: I have a H2 Honda Challenge prelude. Its classed to E1. I also have a PT sheet filled out on the car in case I don't have anyone to race with in HC. It so happens that in PT i end up with 9 point left unused in PTC. Since PTC also crosses over into E1 i can claim PTC as my class and run R6's and cams if i wanted to. I think the way to close up any issues with this is to say that all cars running enduro's should use their PT class designation. Some lazy racers would whine about having to do the points process but would help to ensure a more level playing field. Then 3.3.1 would become obsolete and not be an issue anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 I like the idea of the note next to the PTx classes simply reading "Max tire width rating per Class base tire size" or something like that. Thus PTF guys can run a 215 DOT whatever, PTE guys can run a 235 DOT whatever, etc The spec guys can still change to a DOT whatever fits their spec rim. And so on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weed Wacker Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 So what your saying is that if a car that runs PTE with 245 wide Hoosier R6's they would have to either run the next higher enduro class or slow themselves down? I understand this is not a sprint race so a little less rubber *should* not make or break you but i don't see that working well either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hmm, that's a good point as well. Perhaps everyone simply has to run what is legal in their class then... At least then nobody is buying a different set of tires and potentially rims to do enduros... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I like the idea of the note next to the PTx classes simply reading "Max tire width rating per Class base tire size" or something like that. Thus PTF guys can run a 215 DOT whatever, PTE guys can run a 235 DOT whatever, etc The spec guys can still change to a DOT whatever fits their spec rim. And so on.... I would be staunchly against that fwiw - find me a 215/45/15 Hoosier or similar tire and I might not be though. My letter to Jerry basically explained the loophole available for the PT guys, a request to revisit what PT classes are put into which E_ classes, and a request to strike 3.3.1 all together and instead insist people run the tires that are legal for their class. With PT, ST, STR, and SU available as catch-alls for the spec guys that don't want to run their spec tires that seems like a level playing field to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hmm, that's a good point as well. Perhaps everyone simply has to run what is legal in their class then... At least then nobody is buying a different set of tires and potentially rims to do enduros... yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 How would you enforce running in your "own" class? Many run in more than one class, depending on the weekend, and is does make a big difference. For the Road Atlanta enduro, I'm running the car in GTS-1 trim, instead of Spec. I run both classes at Nationals, so I already have wheels for this. I run 20mm wider top tier R-comps one one inch wider wheels for this vs. Spec. Otherwise, it's a lot to leave on the table vs. the "native" GTS-1 competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 I would imagine that is why that rule is in there. To attempt to equalize the fact that a bunch of different rulesets are being mashed into the various Ex classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 How would you enforce running in your "own" class?. its very simple - you declare in writing what class you are using to translate into E_ before the race starts. Guys like you will have the opportunity to use (abuse?) the GTS or PT or ___ ruleset to gain whatever legal advantage they can get, and thats ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammed_93_hatch Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 How would you enforce running in your "own" class?. its very simple - you declare in writing what class you are using to translate into E_ before the race starts. Guys like you will have the opportunity to use (abuse?) the GTS or PT or ___ ruleset to gain whatever legal advantage they can get, and thats ok Pretty sure you already have to do that. http://www.nasa25hour.com/2009/entrants/2009-nasa-25-hour.html Scroll down, and look at the "reg-class" column. You have to show up to impound (for the 25 hour) with you rule book in hand for you respective class. This is part of the reason many of the older miata's used to run as "ITA" instead of SM as they could do more stuff to the car. The enduro classing isn't perfect, never has been, and never was supposed to be. You are only supposed to be competing against cars that are somewhat close in speed to each other. Jerry is usually very pro-active about fixing anything that is glaringly wrong/possible oversight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammed_93_hatch Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 looking over the list here is a very examples of this "picking a class carefully" THe gear-x honda integra-R is a Honda Challenge H1 car. But USTCC also fits into E0 USTCC just has a simple power to weight ratio rule and that is it. Were as H1 has a ton of rules. Also there is another error the spoon sports2 team shouldn't be entered in E1... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 The more i look at the various class rules (GTS as an example) this seems like the only reasonable way to somewhat equalize them as they combine into enduro classing. The more i read and think about it it probably should just stay the way it is IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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