Using a tiptronic/Steptronic like transmission for TT

[Mr PS]

Hey all,

 

Trying to reach out to those who uses a tiptronic or steptronic like transmission for TT. My search results came out null. I really doubt I am the only one here...

 

I am hoping to get some feedback and possibly get Greg to reconsider the points for having such a transmission for 2011.

 

Under the 2010 NASA TT rules, these 3 are applicable:

 

28) Non-OEM sequential (semi-automatic) or dog-ring (non-synchromesh) transmission

(includes altered gear ratios) +7

29) Upgrade number of forward gears in transmission or altered gear ratios +3

30) Added paddle/electronic shift +3

 

Since the Steptronic comes as an option to my BMW, I have to take (30) and I don't have to take (28).

 

The points in question is (29). The words 'upgrade' and 'altered' imply an intention of modifying the factory transmission (be it manual or steptronic). However, it was clarified that as long as the steptronic transmission (even if it's from factory) has different gearings than a manual transmission, it is considered as 'altered'.

 

I find it hard to believe that any steptronic type of transmission out there has the same gear ratios as its manual transmission counterpart. Meaning if it is a steptronic type, it is implied that the gear ratios are different. Does anyone has any valid examples that can prove me wrong?

 

Having to take points for anything under the NASA TT rules indicates having an advantageous stance. Hence, (29) implies that my steptronic transmission has an advantage in terms of gear ratios over a manual transmission. This is part I fail to visualize. For my 2001 BMW 325i, the 0-60mph performance is 7.1s for a manual setup and 8.1 for a steptronic setup. In addition, it's a common mechanical fact that there is more drivetrain power loss in a steptronic and a manual transmission.

 

I really can't see other advantage for taking (29).

 

Comments, advice most welcomed.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Guest

[mbuskuhl]

All factory options and other modifications by the factory that are not included in the basic

trim package of a model (or in the non-basic trim package specifically listed below in 6.3.2 to

assign a TT base class), must be assessed modification points as in Section 6.4.

 

Take #29 and #30. The 0-60 times are not relevant, this is not drag racing and most of your time is above 60mph anyways. What is important is the RPM drop between gears and how this relates to your power band. Get the gear ratios from both trannies and play around with a gear calculator like http://www.americantorque.com/graph-rpm-vs-speed/ - you might find its to your advantage or maybe not. In either case, not everything is always fair.

[Mr PS]

All factory options and other modifications by the factory that are not included in the basic

trim package of a model (or in the non-basic trim package specifically listed below in 6.3.2 to

assign a TT base class), must be assessed modification points as in Section 6.4.

 

Take #29 and #30. The 0-60 times are not relevant, this is not drag racing and most of your time is above 60mph anyways. What is important is the RPM drop between gears and how this relates to your power band. Get the gear ratios from both trannies and play around with a gear calculator like http://www.americantorque.com/graph-rpm-vs-speed/ - you might find its to your advantage or maybe not. In either case, not everything is always fair.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

In which case, perhaps we are getting into the finer arithmetic aspect.

 

I do have a Excel sheet to compute the differences in speed for each gear for both Manual and Step. Using the same tires for both, I graphed the 3rd and 4th gears. RPM is 750 to 6000. I still don't get the advantage I have.

 

[Trevor57]

Rules apply differently to all cars. In your case it may not be an upgrade, but on many other cars it is an upgrade. So it is up to the competitor to chose the best use of points for their specific car.

[mbuskuhl]

Mr PS,

 

Post up or send me the below and I will post back some graphs that will show which if any of these two transmissions have a gear advantage over the other and explain why.

 

1. Gear ratios for both transmissions

2. Final drive ratio

3. Tire diameter in inches

4. Your shift point (which might actually change depending upon the RPM drop on the graphs)

[Mr PS]

I am under the impression that BMW's Steptronic is just an automatic transmission with up and downshift selector (and why the 0-60 times are slower). If this is true then it is not a sequential or dog ring box. However, you are probably required to take the electronic shift points.

 

Yes you're correct about the up/down shift. Unlike the newer DSG units, there is a shift delay as well.

 

I always thought that it's an disadvantage to compete in a Steptronic. But due to an old injury with my left knee cap, I have no choice.

 

Still, the advantage from NASA's pov is the 'ease' and 'convenience' of changing gears. So I get it. I don't mind taking points but +3 seems a bit steep (more like a +2) for something that I didn't modify to my advantage.

 

Thanks to mbuskuhl's help and confirmation. With his permission, I posted this.

 

 

The top part is for manual transmission and the bottom for Steptronic transmission.

 

I still don't see what advantages I have for taking +3 under (29).

 

Maybe some of you recognize something here. Please help me decipher!

[kbrew8991]

I still don't see what advantages I have for taking +3 under (29).

 

Maybe some of you recognize something here. Please help me decipher!

 

this isn't good enough?

 

Rules apply differently to all cars. In your case it may not be an upgrade, but on many other cars it is an upgrade. So it is up to the competitor to chose the best use of points for their specific car.

[mbuskuhl]

I still don't see what advantages I have for taking +3 under (29).

 

Maybe some of you recognize something here. Please help me decipher!

 

this isn't good enough?

 

 

What is "this" Ken? The manual gears are better than the step gears, yet the OP takes +3 for altered gears even though he doesn't have the manual gears. The manual gears have a slightly lower RPM drop between shifts than the step. No way anyone could make an argument the gearing in the step is better. But, rules are rules and it says if you have altered gears take +3. There is no question about that, the OP is just pointing out that he takes points involuntarily on his car for something that is a disadvantage.

 

I question whether he even has altered gears and has to take +3. I don't know much about BMW, but if you are saying this tranny has automatic gear ratios, was a manual the only car on the base model? I'd be looking for evidence to show an automatic was available on base model.

[kbrew8991]

I'd be looking for evidence to show an automatic was available on base model.

 

sound advice

 

Mark - I was getting at the fact that just because the modification doesn't help YOU doesn't mean that it doesn't help any car out there. The modification points are supposed to be setup for a car that gains the full advantage of said mod. It is part of the skill of TT/PT to pick out the stuff that helps your car while avoiding the "bad deals", and sometimes you can get hamstrung if you start off with a poorly optioned car. That's no different than what you'd run into with other clubs out there...

[Trevor57]

If every person wanted rule exceptions based on their own cars shortcomings the directors would never get anything done. I thought I was clear before but let me try again.

 

Nobody is arguing that the OP is gaining an advantage.

 

This is similar to buying a "special edition" car and then complaining about taking points for the rear wing, and front fascia etc.

[xcrider2005]

I definitely agree about not making exceptions for cars, because that would become a nightmare.

 

Do all automatic transmissions fall into rule 30? I don't see how Steptronic is any different than shifting an automatic, manually (only difference is paddle mounted). It seems like the rule would be better if you took points for a dual clutch gearbox (BMW DCT) or a computer controlled manual (BMW SMG), but not paddle shifted automatics.

[Mr PS]

Mark - I was getting at the fact that just because the modification doesn't help YOU doesn't mean that it doesn't help any car out there. The modification points are supposed to be setup for a car that gains the full advantage of said mod. It is part of the skill of TT/PT to pick out the stuff that helps your car while avoiding the "bad deals", and sometimes you can get hamstrung if you start off with a poorly optioned car. That's no different than what you'd run into with other clubs out there...

 

I get that. No single set of rules will be fair to everyone. But rules can be adapted to include new technologies and platforms. And there's a flaw in that statement. You made the assumption that all electronically controlled transmissions are the same, ie Steptronic/tiptronic, good ol' PRND, DCT, manual transmission with automated clutch, Hewland type dog shift (for WRC, WTCC, LMP). It's a convenient assumption nonetheless, because nobody competes on a regular basis with a Steptronic type transmission in NASA TT.

 

I am not asking NASA to review (29) for Steptronic because I have a left knee condition. I am hoping NASA can review it for 2011 because one can no longer lump Steptronic/automatic transmission together with dual clutch transmission (Nissan,BMW's DCT and Audi/VW's DSG) and manual transmission with automated clutch (BMW's SMG and yes the Smart ForTwo). In other words, not all electronically controlled transmissions function the same way.

 

If it is that inconvenient to separate out the differences for electronically controlled transmissions, then why even bother assigning +7 for NT-01, + 10 for V710, + 13 for Z214? These are all lumped into the same cluster of DOT R-comp tires anyway. But no, NASA TT rules sorted these tires out. Because NASA recognized an advantage for having each brand/compound and that not all DOT R-comp tires function the same way.

 

I feel I have to work a little harder to make my voice heard. Because, unlike tires where most TT competitors will go for a DOT R-comp, it's now highly likely I may be the only regular TT bloke who tracks a Steptronic transmission. Instead of saying tough luck or that's the way life is, why not take the opportunity to examine the differences behind a Steptronic, dual clutch, and manual with automated clutch transmission? Everyone can learn and discover something new and interesting.

[kbrew8991]

hey I don't make the rules either

[AZELISE]

I don't make the rules but if I did I would make a rule that it is a no point mod for an automatic transmission with the same or less number of forward gears than OEM stock manual transmission. I would still count the three points for electronic shift since it is an advantage over a normal automatic.

[mbuskuhl]

The rule should be worded like the below:

 

 

29) Increase number of forward gears in transmission and/or non-OEM gear ratios

[Mr PS]

Just want to post an update on this possibly serve as reference for potential drivers who want to compete in a tiptronic/steptronic like transmission.

 

With 2011 TT rules released and a line updated on

 

D1: Non-OEM sequential (semi-automatic) or dog-ring (non-synchromesh) transmission

(includes altered gear ratios) +7 (does not include automatic transmissions utilizing a

torque converter)

 

Which seems like a huge relief cos it helps to clarify the 2010 rules a bit. But still doesn't answer any questions pertaining to:

 

D2: Upgrade number of forward gears in transmission or altered gear ratios +3

 

For now at least, I think I am the only doofus who still insist on competing with a Steptronic setup so it's quite difficult for me or have others help me understand why having altered gear ratios (factory) in my car actually benefit me.

 

Nevertheless, this will be an interesting year.

[TurboShortBus]

For now at least, I think I am the only doofus who still insist on competing with a Steptronic setup so it's quite difficult for me or have others help me understand why having altered gear ratios (factory) in my car actually benefit me.

It's not just about your car, but about a car somewhere that would greatly benefit from the same modification (altered gear ratios, in this case). Here is something that I posted in another thread:

Unfortunately, while some modifications do not do much to improve Car A's performance, they would do wonders to improve Car B's performance. The points are based on the greatest performance gain, so if the modification isn't worth the points, then the driver has the option not to do the modification. If we started with "Modification X to Car A is 1 point, but the same Modification X to car B is 4 points," the rule book would be a foot thick. That's where this comes into play:

Every frog has its warts

Mark