Question for National - How do we enforce the new rules?

[jakermc]

John & Ryan,

 

I'll post this question in the forum since I am sure this is important to both the racers and the other regional directors.

 

I'm sure you thought through all the implications of the new rules before passing them, so can you help me understand as a Regional Director how I am supposed to enforce the new rule on transmissions? How exactly do I identify what is a synchromesh transmission and what is not when a car passes through tech? When we suspect something is wrong do we seal the tranny and then take it apart to find out?

 

How exactly do I identify a 'factory competition prep vehicle'? I've seen some nicely prepped Porsche 996 cars that look a whole lot like Cup cars and would probably fool those not familiar with the particulars of a Cup car. And as a Porsche driver myself, I have no idea what makes a BMW Motorsports chassis different from a street car. Do you intend to send something out to educate us on how to identify this 'factory competition prep vehicles'? We need to know what the factory cars have that no street car conversion can ever have.

[JSG1901]

I have to say, I'm equally in the dark about how I would enforce this.

[scottbm3]

I have to say, I'm equally in the dark about how I would enforce this.

 

Cool, now I can install that dogleg box I've been stashing away in the garage......

Cause that would make such a big difference

 

-Scott B.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Guest

[scottbm3]

John & Ryan,

 

I'll post this question in the forum since I am sure this is important to both the racers and the other regional directors.

 

I'm sure you thought through all the implications of the new rules before passing them, so can you help me understand as a Regional Director how I am supposed to enforce the new rule on transmissions? How exactly do I identify what is a synchromesh transmission and what is not when a car passes through tech? When we suspect something is wrong do we seal the tranny and then take it apart to find out?

 

How exactly do I identify a 'factory competition prep vehicle'? I've seen some nicely prepped Porsche 996 cars that look a whole lot like Cup cars and would probably fool those not familiar with the particulars of a Cup car. And as a Porsche driver myself, I have no idea what makes a BMW Motorsports chassis different from a street car. Do you intend to send something out to educate us on how to identify this 'factory competition prep vehicles'? We need to know what the factory cars have that no street car conversion can ever have.

 

 

The BMW Motorsports Chassis is basically just a Body In White(shell) that comes from the factory with a FIA cage installed, which needs to be added to to make the cage legal in most of the US. Pro/amateur series. It's Not a fully built race car. It's not even a rolling chassis. It's all the Motorsports bit and pieces($$$$$$$) that make the difference, and you have to buy them(if you can) and build them. There are only a few fully built BMW Motorsports chassis cars running in the US. Most are ex PTG BMW cars such as Chad Nelsons and just maybe a couple more that I can think of. They're not the same as what Porsche does with the GT3 Cup type cars fully built race cars from the factory. Though Chad has one of each, so he gets dinged either way

 

 

-Scott B.

[JS154]

John & Ryan,

 

I'll post this question in the forum since I am sure this is important to both the racers and the other regional directors.

 

I'm sure you thought through all the implications of the new rules before passing them, so can you help me understand as a Regional Director how I am supposed to enforce the new rule on transmissions? How exactly do I identify what is a synchromesh transmission and what is not when a car passes through tech? When we suspect something is wrong do we seal the tranny and then take it apart to find out?

 

How exactly do I identify a 'factory competition prep vehicle'? I've seen some nicely prepped Porsche 996 cars that look a whole lot like Cup cars and would probably fool those not familiar with the particulars of a Cup car. And as a Porsche driver myself, I have no idea what makes a BMW Motorsports chassis different from a street car. Do you intend to send something out to educate us on how to identify this 'factory competition prep vehicles'? We need to know what the factory cars have that no street car conversion can ever have.

 

 

The BMW Motorsports Chassis is basically just a Body In White(shell) that comes from the factory with a FIA cage installed, which needs to be added to to make the cage legal in most of the US. Pro/amateur series. It's Not a fully built race car. It's not even a rolling chassis. It's all the Motorsports bit and pieces($$$$$$$) that make the difference, and you have to buy them(if you can) and build them. There are only a few fully built BMW Motorsports chassis cars running in the US. Most are ex PTG BMW cars such as Chad Nelsons and just maybe a couple more that I can think of. They're not the same as what Porsche does with the GT3 Cup type cars fully built race cars from the factory. Though Chad has one of each, so he gets dinged either way

 

 

-Scott B.

 

For models other than the E30 M3, E28 M5 and the M1. The E30 M3 is a true BMW Motorsport chassis. (whihc is why the car was penalized by the SCCA ad forced to run in GT2 in stock form or ITE regioanlly, up until ITR was introduced)

 

The only body panels the E30 M3 shares with the regular E30 is the hood and roof. All 22 other body panels are unique and made for homologation purposes, along with the engine which is one of a kind amongst all of BMW's engines.

 

The E36 E46 E90/92 are regular production line chassis, body and engine and drivetrain.

 

BTW, OS Giken makes a true close ratio gearset for the overdrive Getrag 265 syncromesh gearbox, which very nearly duplicates the Grp A non-syncromesh 5spd gearbox. $5k for the gearset alone, plus rebuild.

[scottbm3]

John & Ryan,

 

I'll post this question in the forum since I am sure this is important to both the racers and the other regional directors.

 

I'm sure you thought through all the implications of the new rules before passing them, so can you help me understand as a Regional Director how I am supposed to enforce the new rule on transmissions? How exactly do I identify what is a synchromesh transmission and what is not when a car passes through tech? When we suspect something is wrong do we seal the tranny and then take it apart to find out?

 

How exactly do I identify a 'factory competition prep vehicle'? I've seen some nicely prepped Porsche 996 cars that look a whole lot like Cup cars and would probably fool those not familiar with the particulars of a Cup car. And as a Porsche driver myself, I have no idea what makes a BMW Motorsports chassis different from a street car. Do you intend to send something out to educate us on how to identify this 'factory competition prep vehicles'? We need to know what the factory cars have that no street car conversion can ever have.

 

 

The BMW Motorsports Chassis is basically just a Body In White(shell) that comes from the factory with a FIA cage installed, which needs to be added to to make the cage legal in most of the US. Pro/amateur series. It's Not a fully built race car. It's not even a rolling chassis. It's all the Motorsports bit and pieces($$$$$$$) that make the difference, and you have to buy them(if you can) and build them. There are only a few fully built BMW Motorsports chassis cars running in the US. Most are ex PTG BMW cars such as Chad Nelsons and just maybe a couple more that I can think of. They're not the same as what Porsche does with the GT3 Cup type cars fully built race cars from the factory. Though Chad has one of each, so he gets dinged either way

 

 

-Scott B.

 

For models other than the E30 M3, E28 M5 and the M1. The E30 M3 is a true BMW Motorsport chassis. (whihc is why the car was penalized by the SCCA ad forced to run in GT2 in stock form or ITE regioanlly, up until ITR was introduced)

 

The only body panels the E30 M3 shares with the regular E30 is the hood and roof. All 22 other body panels are unique and made for homologation purposes, along with the engine which is one of a kind amongst all of BMW's engines.

 

The E36 E46 E90/92 are regular production line chassis, body and engine and drivetrain.

 

BTW, OS Giken makes a true close ratio gearset for the overdrive Getrag 265 syncromesh gearbox, which very nearly duplicates the Grp A non-syncromesh 5spd gearbox. $5k for the gearset alone, plus rebuild.

 

Eric,

Could you buy the E30 M3 from the BMW dealership and register it and drive it on the street with the VIN it came with ?

 

-Scott B.

[JS154]

Yes, the US version only.

 

None of the EVO versions, Euro versions, or anything with a 2.5l motor.

 

Perhaps this could best be clarified by NASA as pertaining to cars that do not have VIN#?

[JSG1901]

Perhaps this could best be clarified by NASA as pertaining to cars that do not have VIN#?

Perhaps this shouldn't have been put in there without a lot more discussion and thought...

[JoeMag]

I agree with Scott on the VIN thing and it's really experience in my case. I just found my vin tag when I finally really cleaned up my garage after 3yrs of building a car.

[KTL]

Perhaps this could best be clarified by NASA as pertaining to cars that do not have VIN#?

Perhaps this shouldn't have been put in there without a lot more discussion and thought...

 

Exactly my thought. I too wondered about how a car would be defined as 'factory competition prep vehicle' when the definition of such was not provided with the rule addition, nor was it added to the NASA CCR (for instance in Appendix C).

 

I'm not one for pages and pages of rules. I review written codes all the time at work and it's a nuisance to sit there and intepret the code to decide how it fits one, or multiple circumstance(s). I've learned that absence of code is quite often a good thing. Of course it usually depends on one's perspective....

[David Fazzino]

I asked my friend Jeff, who imported several BMW factory race cars when he lived here, about NASA's problem trying to identify them. This is his response.

 

 

 

That will be tough to enforce and control, as pointed out, how do you see inside the box? You can have a dogbox kit installed into a regular box, but a sequential trans has it's own casings and it would say on the outside 'Made by Gemini, or Pfitzer, etc, etc. It will say anything except 'Made by Getrag for BMW', which will have the appropriate BMW gearbox code

 

As for shells/cars.

1 - it is rare to see an E30 M3 racing in the US that doesnt have a sunroof, so that's an ex street car.

2 - if someone bought an old M3 shell (body in white) from the factory it wont have a sunroof, but will still have a lot of '0000' or 'xxx' in the VIN #

3 - A true ex factory M3/BMW will have a Matter cage with a stamp on it that will say 'made for BMW by Matter #0000000' reference.

4 - Remember a proper Grp N car from that era wont have a welded in cage, they weremt allowed, they were all 'bolted' in which was a genuine Grp N factory car. Only later when it was allowed were these bolt-in cages removed and a weldin unti installed.

 

There are also a few E30's running around that were street cars but now race car that have full ex- BMW motorsports drivetrains etc under them. In short, it's very convoluted, but the above is a good guide.

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[jakermc]

Relying on a VIN may not be a great idea. Chop shops have been altering VINs since VINs existed. If thiefs can figure it out, I am sure a race shop could as well.

 

Sunroofs are often removed and new roof skins constucted. My 996 street car had this done and most would never know a sunroof use to be there.