Possible new racer

[bobzdar]

Hey guys, a few friends and I picked up an '86 944 for $100 and ran it in a Lemons race. We also took a view to possibly running in 944 spec, so the cage is (over) built with that in mind and the only modification to the car that wouldn't be allowed is KYB shocks which were dirt cheap at tire rack. The car successfully made it 17 hours at CMP, though on the 2nd day we had a coolant leak we couldn't find due to it raining, so we finished back in 56th place I believe (down from 30th after the 1st day). It was our first time out so our pit stops sucked, we ran hour stints instead of 2 hour stints and we had some drivers who, well, weren't too fast and got a little shell shocked. Lots of fun, though. I got about 3 hours of track time in over the weekend and we weren't far off the pace of the fastest cars.

 

What we did to the car: Rebuilt MC, rebuilt calipers, installed Hawk pads on the front, installed a rear sway bar, replaced some coolant hoses, new plugs/rotor/cap. The interior was gutted, a/c removed, steering rack converted to manual, Kirkey race seat and 5 point harness installed. Cat was cut out and replaced with a straight pipe. We put the dash back in and the gutted heater box with fan was put back in for defrost/vent purposes (which turned out to be a life saver during cautions). The car had new rotors and pads, timing belts changed and some other stuff done to it already when we got it. We still have at least 1/2 the pads left.

 

So, with a few dings and dents from from the race (between 70 and 100 cars on the 1 mile track at a time with very clean racing, but it seems other people didn't always see yellow flags and would run into us when we slowed down), the car is sitting at my house and ready for some more action. I have another car I'm planning on running in HPDE and Time Trials, but since we have the car we'd like to run it. Looks like I'd just need some Toyos and Konis and the car will be good to go rules wise. I think total investment in the car (minus race costs and driver safety equipment) is less than $2k at this point.

 

We have access to a transaxle with limited slip rear for free that needs new synchros, so that is a possible winter project. However, I realize I probably wouldn't be able to run 944 spec in 2011 due to having to get a competition license, and unfortunately the car wouldn't be good for HPDE to start since it has no passenger seat. What's the quickest route to get out there racing - obviously assuming I can demonstrate I can drive quickly and cleanly?

[kbrew8991]

Pick up an inexpensive seat & harness and install on the passenger side. Done!

 

- KB, big fan of going through HPDE in something very similar to what you intend to race

[Sterling Doc]

Where are you located?

 

I agree with KB above, though if you have enough experience, you might be able to slot into HPDE2, where a passenger seat is not required. Or you could go through HPDE1 in your street car, and bring the 944 out once you're promoted HPDE2 and above.

[bobzdar]

Outside of Richmond. The other car is more of a track car than a street car, so I can use that. However, I don't have any seat time in that car (at least at speed) where I know the 944 fairly well at this point. I do know of a guy that has some parts 944's around, so could probably pick up a pass. seat to throw in it and I think we still have the seatbelt for it somewhere. I'll probably try to bring both cars (get somebody else to tow the Porsche) so that somebody can play with the Porsche. We've already gotten our money out of it so it's just a toy to have fun with at this point. I figured it'd be the easiest way for me to get some more racing in while I work on sorting out the other car.

[mcmmotorsports]

Hello and welcome to the forums. I am a little confused as to which car is which but If the car has a cage, I would only recommend using racing seats and harnesses for both driver and passenger.

Being in Richmond puts you smack dab in the Mid-Atlantic region. I am the 944-SPEC director for the Southeast region (which covers CMP btw ) but you could play with the Mid-Atlantic guys if you wish. Currently they run at VIR and Summit Point.

You best option is to get a car together, in either HPDE trim or race trim with a passenger seat and come on out. As a former HPDE 1 instructor, the first thing I would tell my guys is to have patience. While we all want to get out there and race wheel to wheel as soon as possible, there is no substitute for experience and that is something that can only be gained by seat time, lots and lots of seat time. Now, you may get out there and have an instructor that feels you are capable for HPDE 2 with your current experience and that would be great, but be honest to yourself and only move up the ladder when you and your instructor(s) feel that you are 100% ready.

 

Feel free to email me with any other questions you may have about the class and/or the Mid-Atlantic and SE regions.

 

mcmaduske AT hotmail DOT com

[cbuzz]

Or you could just do it the SCCA way and sign up for a Super School and get your racing license in one weekend. Then go to NASA and and have them check you out. If you are ready then you are good to go. If not you may need some additional track time in HPDE.

The SCCA Super School gives you 6 hours of track time in a racing environment over one weekend. Very intensive and way too much fun.

Be sure to do your racing with NASA though.

[944-Spec#94]

Charlie is correct. The fastest way to a license is taking an SCCA school. Once you get an SCCA comp license you can get a NASA comp license.

 

HOWEVER!!!!

 

 

This is a big however... too... Just because you can get a qucik license through SCCA and NASA will honor it does NOT mean you will be good racer ready for action. SCCA schools don't teach driving skill just the bare minimum to run on a track. I have seen many people get SCCA comp licenses who have very little track time and be really slow and frustated at race time. Learning the basics of the line, weight transfer, heel and toe, and basic traffic managment are not idea in a race setting. Most will expect you to know that already. HPDE is the place to learn all that.

 

Now what you can do is take that caged car and get an SCCA comp license. Then run NASA HPDE's untill you feel you are ready and then use the SCCA license to get NASA license. It can make the process faster, but you should do at leat a few DE's to make sure you comfortable at speed.

 

Or you can just start in HPDE1 with an instructor and move up the groups. It can take a year to move up the DE ranks an while that may sound like a long time it is very valuable experience.

 

From a car perspective a 944 that stripped, but on stock suspension while legal for 944 spec will not be competive. It will roll too much in the corners. Even so it is a good set-up for DE as it makes it much easier to feel the balance in the car and learn how to respond to it. A stiff race car response faster and can easily surprise a novice. Experience drivers have fine tuned seat of the pants and will feel even the sightest change in balance and be able to correct. A novice will tend to feel an issue only too late save the car from spinning.

 

Also it is very good idea to change the rod bearings in any tracked 944. It is often that years of street use as worn them down and hard track use will put the motor at risk of spinning a bearing. Fresh rod bearings do not 100% solve the issue, but do help minimize the risk. It is also a good idea to get oil pan baffled why you do the rod bearings.

 

Even in DE never run 944 engine over full on oil or under the full mark. Never run a light 30 weight oil either as I have seen it happen often that motors sprin bearings on light oil. Best to run a 20w50 or 15w15 oil and if you are in cold area you can get by with a 10-40, but I don't like it.

[bobzdar]

I'll try to give some context as to why I might be able to race cleanly and reasonably quickly - and please feel free to criticize and give me the best and more importantly safest path forward.

 

I've been (seriously) sim racing for about 12 years using a wheel with 3 pedal setup, shifter and force feedback. I can heel toe without issue, know how to setup a car to suit me (to a degree, I suck at aero tuning for some reason) and know how to drive around other cars. This has helped tremendously with racing theory, how to find a line, find consistent braking points, threshold, use downshift rpms to modulate rear brakes where I want them for certain corners where the bias isn't adjustable, shift the weight of the car around etc because you have to do all that with no g-force feedback. And when I have the time to practice (which is increasingly infrequently) I can usually go very quickly as compared to the top qual times. To prepare for the CMP race, I ran the solstice in iracing, which seemed to translate well when I actually got in the 944, though the 944 had less under-steer which suited me.

 

I know it's not the same as real racing, which is one of the reasons I jumped at the chance to go racing this past summer to see how it all transferred while I build my other car for track duty - it's been a solid 10 year project at this point but will be ready this summer. Funny how a group can get together and prep a car in 2 months (the 944), but on my own it takes me 10 years. I've done karting, autox etc. in the past and a couple of track days, but never driving in a real race until this summer.

 

Everything transferred to the point I was over 2 seconds a lap faster than any of my teammates (actually being able to feel the car was nice!), a couple of which have motorcycle racing experience and including the fact I did not drive when the track conditions were at their best. On the few laps I had some clear running, I was consistently within about .2 of my best, so I could do the speed consistently. I was also much less nervous racing with all of those cars and was able to out brake and stick harder in the corners than all but a few cars, part of which was that the car handled very well and was balanced even though we were using 400 treadwear tires. I had no issue with heel/toe and missed one shift in 2.5 hours of racing. We were definitely down on power to the quicker cars as I had a few battles with cars that I'd get passed on the straight and then repass heading into t1 and pull out a bit through the rest of the track, then get repassed on the main straight again. In the first hour, I lost 1 lap to the leader, so given around a 1 minute lap time was only about a second a lap off. Keeping in mind there were between 70 and 100 cars on the 1 mile track configuration when I was driving, I had 3 incidents the whole weekend. One was when a car spun in front of me and I had a car on either side of me so could not swerve and I hit his front bumper with mine hard enough to collapse a bumper shock but not do any actual damage. The 2nd was when somebody did not see a yellow flag and decided to pass me on the outside of a turn under yellow and ran into the side of my car. I went off-track one time to avoid a spinning car on the exit of a corner. Considering I ran about 150 laps, I think that's pretty good. I was so impressed with how good the 944 felt, I would like to race it again, but it would be nice to be around less than a hundred cars and have equal competition - more so because it was a real challenge picking through the (significantly) slower cars than the few times getting passed. I doubt I'd ever have to watch my mirrors and think about car placement as much as I did in that race, the first 10 minutes were a little difficult but by that point I had adjusted and was comfortable enough to know the surrounding car situation, drive quickly and keep my eye on the gauges and know when flags were out. The 2nd stint I was starting to have trouble towards the end of the hour as I was getting slightly dehydrated in the 90 degree heat and probably didn't rehydrate enough after the 1st hour. I was still driving quickly as I set my fastest lap towards the end of that stint, but when a yellow flew and I got hit, I ducked into the pits.

 

The car really needs a limited slip rear, I could not exit 2nd gear corners without spinning the inside wheel. It also needs the brake bias moved to the rear some as I was having to downshift early to try and get a little more engine braking. Balance was pretty neutral but with a bit of understeer, though I'd have to experiment with toe a little to see if anything could be done about it (we were running max front camber with stock suspension). The Konis could provide some adjustment as well.

 

I really like the NASA rules regarding passing, that has been a huge contention in some of the racing leagues I've been in. I don't really care what the rule states (re, front wheel needs to be next to driver to have the line) as long as there actually is one. Otherwise you get dive bombing or people pinching you which is very frustrating. My view has usually been that if someone is fast enough to get their nose inside before a corner, I'll leave room, otherwise I'm just going to slow both myself and the other driver down and possibly cause an accident by trying to resist even if I'm not at fault. I know others are not so kind, but usually it slows everyone down.

 

Kind of a long post, but if I'm way off base in thinking I can race sometime in the next 6 months or so given what I have in experience, please let me know - and if you have suggestions on how to get to that point, please do.

[mcmmotorsports]

As I said above:

You best option is to get a car together, in either HPDE trim or race trim with a passenger seat and come on out. As a former HPDE 1 instructor, the first thing I would tell my guys is to have patience. While we all want to get out there and race wheel to wheel as soon as possible, there is no substitute for experience and that is something that can only be gained by seat time, lots and lots of seat time. Now, you may get out there and have an instructor that feels you are capable for HPDE 2 with your current experience and that would be great, but be honest to yourself and only move up the ladder when you and your instructor(s) feel that you are 100% ready.

 

While there is some benefit from sim racing, and while you may have felt there was some correlation between the sim racing and your on track endeavors, there is ABSOLUTELY no replacement for actual seat time.

I cannot stress enough the importance of gaining seat time on a real race track in a real race car. Please don't put a time limit on your learning, (6 months to full blown racing), that is the wrong approach.

Just a little side bar, there is a reason why more people chose to get their experience with NASA and their HPDE program versus the "other" option. Our HPDE program provides a more thorough learning experience as well as a more enjoyable one.

Again, TIME is needed. If you are going to rush your learning and development of your skills, I don't know how comfortable I would be running two wide through the kink @ CMP wide open at over 100 miles per hour.

 

Just my .02, hopefully others agree with me.

[kbrew8991]

All that stuff definitely will sharpen your learning curve, but give yourself a chance to learn all the other more subtle tips and tricks you can in HPDE as well. You'll end up a much better racer if you do (imho).

[bobzdar]

As I said above:

You best option is to get a car together, in either HPDE trim or race trim with a passenger seat and come on out. As a former HPDE 1 instructor, the first thing I would tell my guys is to have patience. While we all want to get out there and race wheel to wheel as soon as possible, there is no substitute for experience and that is something that can only be gained by seat time, lots and lots of seat time. Now, you may get out there and have an instructor that feels you are capable for HPDE 2 with your current experience and that would be great, but be honest to yourself and only move up the ladder when you and your instructor(s) feel that you are 100% ready.

 

While there is some benefit from sim racing, and while you may have felt there was some correlation between the sim racing and your on track endeavors, there is ABSOLUTELY no replacement for actual seat time.

I cannot stress enough the importance of gaining seat time on a real race track in a real race car. Please don't put a time limit on your learning, (6 months to full blown racing), that is the wrong approach.

Just a little side bar, there is a reason why more people chose to get their experience with NASA and their HPDE program versus the "other" option. Our HPDE program provides a more thorough learning experience as well as a more enjoyable one.

Again, TIME is needed. If you are going to rush your learning and development of your skills, I don't know how comfortable I would be running two wide through the kink @ CMP wide open at over 100 miles per hour.

 

Just my .02, hopefully others agree with me.

 

I'd be curious to hear what does/doesn't translate in sim racing so I can know what to work on at the track. From what I've talked to those that have done both is that the fear factor is the big thing along with physical conditioning, though neither of those caused me problems. The one encouraging thing I can say for it is that it seemed to give me a large advantage over my teammates in terms of speed and I was not struggling with the traffic.

 

Your input is appreciated, and please realize I will not race unless I feel that I and my competitors will be safe. I just would like to go about it in the best way for me and my skill set, that's all. I do enjoy just running laps to try to get the most out of the car I can, but at the same time I like a frame of reference for how well I'm doing (ie competition) and the only way to do that is to race - or hand the keys of my car to somebody else and see what they can do. I will probably shoot for the March VIR event and go from there, have a baby coming next month so Feb. will be pushing it. I may just try to run some time trials this year and see about racing next year. Anything else you can think of in terms of preparation etc. would be appreciated.

[Sterling Doc]

You have a good attitude about this, and that will serve you well.

To answer your question, Sim racing is useful, but has several specific limitations in driver training.

 

Sim racing does not build your situational awareness - that 360 mental image/understanding of the where your competitors are around you, their closing rate, and even their individual driving charactersitics that help you make good, split second decisions on the track. It takes a time to synthesize all the visual cues (and the limitations of vision), sounds, and feel to develop an accurate sense of situational awareness. This is where time in HPDE, and the drills that they do, are time very well spent.

[bobzdar]

You have a good attitude about this, and that will serve you well.

To answer your question, Sim racing is useful, but has several specific limitations in driver training.

 

Sim racing does not build your situational awareness - that 360 mental image/understanding of the where your competitors are around you, their closing rate, and even their individual driving charactersitics that help you make good, split second decisions on the track. It takes a time to synthesize all the visual cues (and the limitations of vision), sounds, and feel to develop an accurate sense of situational awareness. This is where time in HPDE, and the drills that they do, are time very well spent.

 

That's interesting as I was going to say that one of the things sim racing helped me with was the situational awareness. I was able to have a mental image of my surroundings and could quickly react to what was going on around me as I had done all of it before in the thousands of races I had run online. There definitely was an adjustment period at first and I couldn't keep as close an eye on my gauges as I wanted to as nothing I had done approached that level of cars on-track at once. I struggled at first with yellow-green restarts. But, once I got adjusted, I was able to process what was going on in my mirrors, how quickly I was approaching people and whether there was somebody on either side of me in braking zones. The wink mirror we had in the car was actually better than what I was used to on-line, you can really see a lot in that thing and could process what was going on using peripheral vision rather than looking right at it. However, the side mirrors were almost useless as we had to tape them. I guess we'll see how it flows with the HPDE drills, but that's good to know that is a limitation. Is there any kind of overview of what is covered in the HPDE classes?

[Sterling Doc]

Your Lemons experience will help some, too, and you may move up quickly. A lot of the situational awareness is the sound and feel, and knowing your competitors. If that is coming easily in your Lemons experience, than it will help.

Good luck out there!

[944-Spec#94]

Sim racing is not real racing. I can't be a replacement for real racing. It can help some aspects, but is not real substitute. Lemons racing is not real racing either, but it alot closer.

 

Bottom line is it make sense to spend at least some time in DE. If for no other reason than to have an instructor sit next to you and try to correct and bad habits you may have. The really important thing is to not be over confident. Just because you are good at sim racing and did ok in Lemons does not mean you will be ready for proper racing. Heck maybe you will, but go in with an open mind willing to learn. If you really do have the skills to race effectively out of the box that will be apparent right way. If not take the time to learn. Remember we race at 45 to 120 mph. Slow is 45 mph and you do alot of racing at 80+ mph just inches away from another car. At that speed you can get hurt if you are not careful. Better to be respectfull of that fact and approach racing with caution. Sadly I have seen time young punks show up at the track with alot of "playstation" experience and on day 1 or 2 make mistake a wreck their street car. The most common response is "That wreck hurt more than in playstation."

 

So again you may in fact have the skills, but better to do an HPDE and demonstrate that than jump into the deep end right away.

 

 

Also the car does not need a n LSD. Last year I lead half the national championship race with an open diff. The problem you wer having was the stock suspension is too soft and allows too much body roll. That will impact inside rear wheel traction. Stiffen the springs and put in adjustable sways and you will be able to tune out much of the impact of the open diff. Now the LSD is faster overall, but only slightly so and because it allows you to better optimize the chassis in other places on the track rather than fighting wheel spin or lack of rear end grip on trail braking.

[cbuzz]

Please don't get discouraged by the nay sayers.

 

First and most importantly have fun.

 

If you have the skill to learn and can accept being taught you will do fine.

[kbrew8991]

Lemons racing is not real racing either, but it alot closer.

 

I've learned more racecraft in 3 LeMons events than I have in 2 seasons of NASA stuff... two words: Traffic Management.

[jaje]

There is an interesting corollary going on here as the winner of the iRacing's national championship was granted a seat in VW's TDI Cup series (though he was also a kart racing driver so he had seat time) and won his first year out.

 

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/from-virtual-racing-champion-to-real-world-race-winner-iracingcom-driver-wyatt-gooden-takes-volkswagen-jetta-tdi-cup-race-at-mid-ohio-97071469.html

[944-Spec#94]

There is an interesting corollary going on here as the winner of the iRacing's national championship was granted a seat in VW's TDI Cup series (though he was also a kart racing driver so he had seat time) and won his first year out.

 

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/from-virtual-racing-champion-to-real-world-race-winner-iracingcom-driver-wyatt-gooden-takes-volkswagen-jetta-tdi-cup-race-at-mid-ohio-97071469.html

 

 

Last time I saw TDI cup they would destroy 1 or 2 cars per event. That is alot for 20 car field.

 

Point is computer simulations are not the same as racing. Certainly some skills transfer, but others cannot be apperciated. I would not be shocked to know some guys can adapt quite well. Others not so much.

 

LeMons racing is mostly about keeping your nose clean on the track. The lack of required licenses means some guys on the track will have no clue what is going on. The actual wheel to wheel driving is not the same. However any experience is good. It puts you a step above the novice, but 944 spec particulary in well established regions requires a very high skill level to run up front and with 2-3 seconds of leaders per lap. Also there is certain way of drving that expected in organzations like NASA, PCA, SCCA, etc. They expect drivers to be at high skill level and can drive hard and close, but remain contact free. Lemons is different any car is expected to have some minor bumps during the race. Not so in NASA, PCA, or SCCA.

 

So my only advice is that Sim racing and Lemons do count for something, but by themselves do not confirm the skill level of a driver. If I have a HPDE1 student that comes to me with such expereince I will say fine ok. I would assume they have certain basic skills and expect them to demonstrate them on lap 1 or 2. If they do fine we build from there. If not we start from square one.

 

So best advice is get some seat time proper a DE event with an instructor. If you do have good basic skills then moving up will be very simple and the instructor can work on advance techniques. If not use what you do know and have the instructor fill in the gaps. At the end of the day nobody can know what your real skill level is with being at a track without you and either riding along or carefully observing. If you have it right away nobody will hold you back.

[bobzdar]

Thanks for the advice guys. Plan is to make it for the end of March HPDE at VIR and go from there. I'll (hopefully) have my track car there along with the 944, though I think one of the other drivers from our lemons team will be driving it. We'll see how it goes, have to figure out the transmission on my track car and do some rear brake work to get it ready (and probably install at least a roll hoop for safety). If it's not ready, I'll just drive the 944 and find a passenger seat for it. My goal is to run my track car in TT and eventually run the 944 in spec.

 

I'll be looking into springs and arb's at some point, what do you guys do for the rear? It looks like a major PITA to change the rear spring rate. As to the LSD, I have access to a limited slip transaxle for free that just needs synchros, so it's almost a no-brainer, especially if the rear has to come out for spring change at some point. All of that is low on the priority list, though.

[944-Spec#94]

..I'll be looking into springs and arb's at some point, what do you guys do for the rear? It looks like a major PITA to change the rear spring rate. ..

 

We change the t-bars in the rear. Long job, but not that bad.

 

 

http://944spec.org/944SPEC/technical-articles/42-torsion-bar-re-indexing