Officail answer required for legal roll bar padding!

[DAL_MOBILE]

Where are you finding 1"? The thickest BSCI (the guys that make most all of it in the US, Kirkey, Longacre, Speedway, etc) is 7/8". In what plane is the measurement?

 

 

 

 

Dave

 

I believe my friend purchased 1" here

http://www.saferacer.com/longacre-sfi-hid-roll-bar-padding.html?productid=613

 

 

Before I purchased some from Adavanced Autosports (Dave W), I inquired if it meet the SCCA requirement, Dave said it did. (It is SFI, but not SFI stamped)

http://www.advanced-autosports.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13&products_id=102&zenid=8f345c7448eb442071b3011a9e9ce79d

How did something so simple turn into a 5 page (and counting) thread?

[fivestring]

How did something so simple turn into a 5 page (and counting) thread?

Because the rule is too vague to be enforced properly.

And after 5 pages, the rule is still worded the same.

 

If the SFI (and/or the marked/unmarked) is required, the rule should say so.

If 1" min thickness is required, the rule should say so.

[dstevenslv]

The 1" spec is for SCCA. BSCI makes the Longacre padding referenced above in both SFI and non SFI version. That spec sheet is the OEM dimensions for the line. There is a smaller version, perhaps that's what was forced to be removed.

 

While the padding is the same a tech dir could be a stickler and require SFI tags if the regs say so. According to SFI if there is no tag, it does not meet the spec. Even though it could be functionally the same.

[liebbe]

Upon further thought, the word "molded" still does not help the issue. I can forsee a car owner bringing a car with the $3 high density padding round style padding and arguing that it was "molded" into its shape. Then it is up to the inspector to argue the vagueness of the term "molded".

[chris haldeman]

having been involved in the msr-h tech disaster i need this clarified.at msr the biggest problem i seen was the rediculous idea's the tech guys had as to where padding was required.what needs to be added to the rule is the phrase body may contact while properly seated and strapped in.Tech people were wanting padding on nascar door bars??my body cant get there without ripping the door off!!!front cage down bars???only hit it if the car folds in half!!!front winshield bar????again only if it folds in two or my harness tears!!!i see the only area's requiring padding is where the helmet will contact while seated properly and the area aroung the ankle.i agree fully that sfi type material must be used in those areas any other padding atleast with nascar style bars that go into the door is a stupid waste

[dstevenslv]

Chris, if you've ever hit your ankle on the A pillar bar or your elbow or wrist on a door bar or upright, you realize quick why you want padding there regardless of if the sanction calls for it or not.

[chris haldeman]

while i apreciate your response you missed the point.there needs to be clarification as to where the padding needs to be.in the seat and strapped i cannot hit any door bars or the a-pillar.there is a sentence missing from the rule.needs to add body contact when seated and belted

[dstevenslv]

There are two kinds of racers. Those that have crashed and those that will crash. Your knee, elbow, forearm and wrist will have no choice when you get clocked in a big way. They will slam against those bars you proudly rally against padding. It hurts even with the padding. The next day is really when you notice.

[Keith]

Prepare yourselves. The answer has been provided. If you go back and read my references in this thread to past similar situations, this is the exact response as in the past with other "re-intepretations" of rules. No change of wording and no practical "heads up" prior to arrival at the tech shed. I've seen this before and I know how it will work. I was hoping that this would end differently but apparently it will not.

 

I hope the tech guys got a raise this year. They are going to have a tough time defending "their" new interpretation to an existing, unchanged rule. Guys who just spent all winter with the genuine intent of having a car prepared to the letter of the rules will not be receptive to the explanation that they will get.

 

If the weather is crappy, maybe I'll pull up a chair and spectate at the Tech Shed instead of the track at Mid Ohio in a few weeks. As long as I am not personally involved, it could be entertaining to watch.

 

My previous suggestion was to phase this in. My new suggestion is to the guys in tech - please bring printed proof that this isn't your idea to your tech shed. It just might deflect some frustration from drivers. Some.

[chris haldeman]

Keith if you do spectate tech i promise you will not be disappointed!! STILL THERE NEEDS TO BE A CLEAR ANSWER TO WHERE PADDING IS NEEDED.LIST ALL BARS THAT NEED PADDING AND THERE WILL BE NO QUESTIONS.as to if i feel padding should be required is not the point.if it is spelled out in the rulebook i will comply happily.as it stands it is open to 1000's of interpritations of racers who all know there right.good luck!!

[Bark3rd]

Newb is a bit confused here. Can someone provide a link for where to buy the correct padding? Im just going to put it everywhere so not worried about that.

[JT34]

Interesting thread. A customer pointed me here, it looks like a helluva mess!

 

I have to agree with those who stated that the rule is too vague. NASA officials need to review the wording. "Should" is a recommendation, not a requirement. The way the rule is worded makes it needlessly difficult on both drivers and inspectors. And speaking from expereince, it's hard to ask an official to exercise discretion when it comes to safety and liability.

 

As far as the padding goes, I just measured 4 sticks of SFI 45.1 High Density padding for 1.75" bars from All Star. At the thickest point, they ranged from 13/16" to 1-1/16". So stating "one-inch thick" needs to be appended with "nominal" as there can be variations that will cause confusion when a diligent racer/builder breaks out the calipers.

 

The rule probably ought to read in two parts - That padding is required at any point where the driver's body or limbs may come into contact with the roll cage, and that SFI 45.1 high density padding (such as Longacre #65169) is require on all sections of the roll cage where the drivers helmet may come into contact with the roll cage.

 

That accomplishes several things. It makes the cage a safer environment for the driver's head. It minimizes needless expense to the driver. And, it allows for the use of other material with specific use in non-helmet areas, such as Longacre's Door Bar Mat, which is a better solution for NASCAR door bars than either the HD padding OR the cheaper stuff.

 

IMHO of course.

[marshallmosty]

15.6.4 Padding

All roll cage surfaces that may come in contact with the driver should be padded with high-density padding such as Ethafoam or Ensolite. It is recommended that padding meeting SFI specificaiton 45.1 be used.

 

"Should" indicates a suggestion

"Shall" indicates a requirement

 

"Such as"

-adverb

1. to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarity; equally

 

So, if we choose to pad the roll cage, it needs to be equivalent to Ethafoam and Ensolite. Both of which have numerous grades, densities, and impact properties.

 

I am fully aware of the CCR rule over "Should" and "Shall"

However, this is the CCR ...

 

28.1.13 Should vs. Shall

The word “should” is used throughout this rulebook; and in order to fully grasp its

meaning, the following explanations have been created. When the word “should”

is used, it can be taken to mean that something should be done in accordance

with this book, or the driver can expect the stewards to disallow track time, if they

catch the issue. The reason that it’s stated as “should,” is to add emphasis that

it’s really, and ultimately, the driver’s responsibility. Because Inspectors,

Instructors, Flaggers, and Officials in general, tend to be human, it is an assumed

risk of this activity that a mistake can be made. Therefore, the driver is ultimately

held responsible for his or her own safety.

Furthermore, the word “should” also makes an implication of fallibility and/or

corrects false expectations. For example, “the flagger should display a yellow

flag,” the yellow flag in question may not show because of 1) it relies on the

flagger’s judgment, and that can be subjective, and 2) the flagger is human and

can make a mistake. Therefore, if one is not willing to risk their safety because

they expect other people to be perfect, then they cannot participate in NASA.

To sum it up, the word “should” can be construed in the context of these

examples:

a) “The driver should have roll cage padding (if they expect to be let on

track).”

b) “The official should check for roll cage padding (implying that, even though

they do their best, the Inspectors can miss something).

 

 

What needs to happen is somthing like this:

 

15.6.4 Padding

All roll cage surfaces that may come in contact with the driver who is properly belted shall be padded with high-density padding. It is recommended that padding meeting SFI specification 45.1 be used. The following non-SFI padding has been reviewed and approved for use under this section and must be selected if non-SFI 45.1 padding is utilized.

 

PN: 1234 Mfr: XYZ Company

PN: 5678 Mfr: ABC Company

PN: 9012 Mfr: Acme Roll Bar Padding

 

 

What is the official direction, without doubt. I have the "pool noodle" type that was "high density" when I bought it. I was told that I was racing "at risk" at MSR-C. I would like to know if I'm going to be "turned away" at TWS for non-compliance.

 

Someone PLEASE draw the line in the sand for everyone and get the CCR's updated, if it's as big of a deal as it "should" be. Clear and simple, in one post, from JWL, or his designee.

[Keith]

Newb is a bit confused here. Can someone provide a link for where to buy the correct padding? Im just going to put it everywhere so not worried about that.

 

I spent Sunday afternoon installing 27 feet of this in my car:

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/KIR-99011/

 

Since the SFI rating is molded right into the face of the padding, this will not be subject to interpretation.

 

I have spent too much time and too much money to get my car to this point, only to not pass tech at my first event in 3 years. So I spent $$$ that I really didn't have to eliminate this problem.

 

I still wish this would be handled differently, but like I said in an earlier post - this ain't my first rodeo and I know how this one will end.

[marshallmosty]

Keith,

Since the birds chirped for over a week and didn't say anything, I bit the bullet on $100 worth of the SFI stuff for my car... I guess money grows on trees??

 

-Marshall

[ninetyfourintegra]

I still wish this would be handled differently, but like I said in an earlier post - this ain't my first rodeo and I know how this one will end.

 

I moved some padding around, think I have myself covered from a rules POV, but will need to see for sure come Friday. Worst case, I support the local vendors with some (more) purchases...

 

I can't get the image of Keith at a rodeo out of my head. Just glad I never saw Broke back mountain...