Capt Slow Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I'm fairly new to racing, and it has come to my attention that reliable brakes are important. ( I thought all they do is slow you down. ) So I figured there's a few of you that have been around the track a couple times and have good experiences with some or cursed other brake pads. I drive a 1986 Prelude and looking for a general education on: -the difference between racing brake pads and street pads (i.e.- heat ratings/ type of material / rotor wear / brake fade / expense) -are there street pads that will perform as well? -brands of pads preferred - rotors ... buy cheapies and expect to throw them away every time or spare no expense. FYI - I have been running Wagner Thermo Quiets for years and have been very happy with them. They held up well at Road Atlanta recently as well. Thanks, Capt Slow (I reposted this in General Q&A to see what the rest of NASA (non Honda owners) prefers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Jeremy C. Posted June 2, 2011 National Staff Share Posted June 2, 2011 Hi there! The choice is really going to boil down to tires. If you are running a fairly sticky tire, you'll need more aggressive brake compounds than if you run on junk tires. More grip means you can use more braking power which means more heat, and thus, more aggressive brake compounds. So, if you are running Toyo's or something better, you'll likely need something fairly aggressive that will not be good for the street. I've been partial to the Hawk Performance stuff for awhile. The DTC 60 and HT10 pads have worked quite well and I would recommend them first. Another good option would be the Hawk Blue! These however will NOT work on the street though because they do require some heat to become effective and that's generally why it's not a good idea to use a race pad on the street! For Rotors, it doesn't much matter here. When I was running stock rotors, I simply replaced them every other weekend with something from Autozone or Napa. Super rotors or cheapies, they both do the job and the pads usually eat them up fairly quickly, so I bought the best deals I could get. Street pads generally will not be up to the task of stopping a car on track lap after lap. They are not designed to preform at this level and you should look for something that is (like the Hawk's above). That's my 2 cents for ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Slow Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 Thank you Prkiller for ya 2 cents! Very helpful. I never considered the relationship between brakes and tires. Currently the 'lude is not a dedicated track car (but soon will be). I consider it a HPDE / street car (1 of 3 daily drivers). Tires are Nitto Neo Gen's VR street tire with a 280 UTQG. Fairly grippy but not like Nitto NT-01's. Any opinion on the Hawk HP Plus or Hawk HPS pads (at least while it's still a street car)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krystar Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I have no problems with HP+'s on the street, in my porsche 944 or my acura rsx. I think it really only becomes an issue when you start using Hawk Blue's and beyond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHIO4DRTEG Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I run the ht10 in the front and hp+ in rear on my integra. I also have ledgend/mini cooper break upgrade with napa rotors and kuhmo v710 tires I love my setup so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wic Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 If you are looking for a dual purpose pad the Hawk HPS is a decent pad. Any street pad will fade with agressive driving on the track. Also if you want to save some $$ the EBC yellows are not bad and they are easier on the rotors, but after using them for racing I will never go back to them. You can save some dough on the rears by running street pads and it offers a good balance with agressive front pads. And that is my 2.5 cents! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterswarts Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I've been running EBC Yellowstuffs on my street prelude for years. I track this car up at Watkins Glen when the race car is having work done. They have given me absolutely no issues as long as I don't drive too aggressive and are very rotor friendly. And yes, I also would not race with the Yellows. They can handle an open track day ok but you do give up some breaking distance. I can brake going into the bus stop in the 3-2 marker range with DTC60's but have to brake around the 5 marker with the yellows. Napa premium rotors is what I also run on both cars. No need for anything fancy. I changed rotors and pads 3x in the 54 days I had on track in 2009 with the race car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Slow Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 Thanks for your 2 and 2.5 cents! Weappreesheatechew! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Jeremy C. Posted June 3, 2011 National Staff Share Posted June 3, 2011 Yep, if you are running those tires, then the Hawk HP+ pads will work great. Once you step up to a NT01 or RA1 type tire, you'll get past the heat generating point that the HP+ pads can handle and you'll start to fade them. They work great on the street and on the track, they will hold up to the abuse as long as the tire isn't to grippy! Have fun out there and be safe. Hope to see you on track in HC soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdisco69 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I'm a Carbotech fan. I'm getting over a year out of pads and rotors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I highly recommend separate track pads and rotors from street pads and rotors, up front. i dont think any pad is good for both street and track, you are giving up a lot on both ends. and in general, you will end up spending less money on brakes in the long run. its the same logic as having separate tires for track and street too. rotors and pads are easy to change out. can be done at the same time as changing wheels. at the very least, dont use different pads on the same rotor. pad compounds get bedded into the top surface of the rotor. mixing it with another compound will create uneven deposits and give the warped feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooked Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Tyson and prkiller are exactly right. The tire/pad combination can quicky get out of wack; R-compound tire too much grip, Hawk pad unable to cope. Excellent point. The likely reason Hawks have any reputation at all is that there are many happy users on lesser grip tires. And that is fine for street/track users who have to make such a compromise. But there are much better brakes available than Hawk, but every time the question comes up, Hawks are tossed into the ring as a suggestion. Their reputation exceeds their abiltiy. Hawk market well, they are a NASA sponsor, most of the race cars at NASA have a decal and run something else. Isn't that telling?? I'm a Carbotech fan..Me to and for several reasons. First, I have grippy tires, RA-1. I have used Hawk HT10, Cobalt XR2 and now on my first set of Carbotech XP10. Cobalt and Carbotech are both a huge step up. Cobalt has a highly corresive dust issue that affects everything around them and is tough on cheap rotors. Carbotech dust is minimal and quite benign, minimul wear and I think they will last the season having used them hard for about 600 miles. Can't tell about rotor wear yet. The Hawks by far the worst and by a significant margin when pressing R-Compounds, they faded, they wore out down to metal after two weekend events. I would not recommend them to anyone, ever. I used them because they were given to me for free. Drivers I know who changed to either Cobalt or Carbotech never went back. In Nor Cal, I'd like to know the last podium finish on Hawk pads, if there is one, I'll bet it was an aberration and few and far between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wm577 Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 the Hawk DTC-70, and DTC-60 is a much better race only pad than the HT10. If your going to compair carbotch xp10 to a hawk pad it should be the DTC-70's not the HT10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfourintegra Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I've run the HT10 for the past 4 yrs. I wanted to go with DTC's but when I ordered they didn't have them in my mold yet. I got an entire season out of 1 set of HT10s, running on Hoosiers. Multiple race wins, track records and Regional Championship. Ever since replacing 100% of my braking system I have had zero fade or abnormal wear issues (prior I would eat a set of RF's in a weekend). As indicated above - - its a complete system, not just a singular item. I want to step to the DTC but I still have a brand new set of HT10s to put on, by the time I am ready to swap and it will be time for Nats and, as we all know, we racers don't usually make a compound change that late in the season... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooked Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 the Hawk DTC-70, and DTC-60 is a much better race only pad than the HT10. If your going to [compair] carbotch xp10 to a hawk pad it should be the DTC-70's not the HT10. Can you please elaborate? How do they compare and what makes the 70's "much better" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Slow Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) If you are looking for a dual purpose pad the Hawk HPS is a decent pad. Any street pad will fade with agressive driving on the track. Also if you want to save some $$ the EBC yellows are not bad and they are easier on the rotors, but after using them for racing I will never go back to them. You can save some dough on the rears by running street pads and it offers a good balance with agressive front pads. And that is my 2.5 cents! Turns out that because of the age and lack of popularity of the second gen preludes, my options for brake pads are limited: Carbotech: None Hawk: Front-HPS / Rear - HP+ EBC: Front- None / Rear - Yellow Hmmm... well. Looks like HPS is all that is available for the front. So if I run into the back of you in like, let's say, turn 10 at Road Atlanta, I'm blaming it on the pads. Edited June 24, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdisco69 Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Turns out that because of the age and lack of popularity of the second gen preludes, my options for brake pads are limited: Carbotech: None If you give them backing plates Carbotech can make you a set of pads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Slow Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 That's great! After looking at Carbotech's line up it appears that an XP8 or XP10 would be appropriate for a 2400 lb H5 / HPDE. Now to find out how much more custom pads will cost... Carbotech XP8™ (1108™) A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range (200°F-1350°F+). Carbotech XP8™ is the first of our racing compounds. Outstanding initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction, excellent modulation and release characteristics. Extremely high fade resistance, very rotor friendly with 100% non-corrosive dust. Excellent as a front brake pad for lighter ITA, ITB, ITC, SRF, H4, H5, and other cars that weigh less than 2,400lbs. Perfect for novice, intermediate and advanced track day (HPDE) use with any tire, and can still be driven safely to and from the track. There are several vehicles that use XP8™ on the street, autocross, and at track day (HPDE) events. Carbotech does NOT recommended XP8™ as a daily driven street pad due to elevated levels of dust and noise. XP8™ is also a great rear brake pad for almost any race car (Spec Miata-T1/T2/CMC). XP8™ is a great compound on the front & rear of most open wheel and sports racers. Carbotech™ XP10™ (1110™) When Carbotech unleashed the XP10™ to the general public, and it was an instant success, gathering multiple regional, divisional, and national championships. The XP10™ is a very high initial bite friction material, with a coefficient of friction and rotor friendliness unmatched in the industry. Fade resistance is in excess of 1650°F. Due to the high level of friction and bite, this material is recommended for cars weighing around 2,000lbs or more, not including formula cars and cars with brake bias bars weighing less than 2,000lbs. This is the preferred compound for the front of Spec Miata racers, SSC,SSB, T3, SRF, ITS, ITE, H1,H2, H3, H4, 944 Cup, ST, GS, Factory Five Cobra’s and many more Grand-Am/ALMS/SCCA/NASA classes. XP10™ is also ideal for advanced/instructor level HPDE drivers. XP10™ still maintains the highly praised release and excellent modulation, rotor friendliness, and 100% non-corrosive dust that have made all Carbotech compounds so successful. XP10™ is not recommended as a daily-driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Slow Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 Turns out that because of the age and lack of popularity of the second gen preludes, my options for brake pads are limited: Carbotech: None If you give them backing plates Carbotech can make you a set of pads. Just had a lengthy email exchange with Carbotech. It turns out that although they do not list the pads on the website, but they do have have them in stock. This goes for some other less popular cars as well. So for anyone driving an 86 or 87 Prelude Si ... The XP10's in front (CT334-XP10) are $176 per set. The XP10 rears (CT374-XP8) and are $153 for the set. Probably will be another 5 years before anyone else will need this info, but there ya have it. Thanks NASA forum for all your help! -Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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