Neon2dmaX Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 Greg: In looking over the rules, I noticed that last year's rules distinguished between DOT "R" compound tires and other DOT tires by reference to the tread wear rating (e.g. less than 81 tread wear would add 5 points, whereas 81+) tread wear would not add points. See: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/nasa-x_tt_classes_update.pdf However, the current rules are silent on this issue. Has the rule remained the same? Thanks. Neon2dmaX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumball Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 We are still adhering to the >81 rule up here in Norcal if that helps. BTW......... why do you ask? Is there a specific tire that you plan to use and are unsure how it should be classified? Regards, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted April 4, 2005 Author Share Posted April 4, 2005 We are still adhering to the >81 rule up here in Norcal if that helps. BTW......... why do you ask? Is there a specific tire that you plan to use and are unsure how it should be classified? Regards, John As you know, there are quite a few sticky street tires that have been preferred by AutoX participants (e.g. Azenis Sport, Kumho MX and the new Hankook RS2). Just wanted to confirm whether the rule had changed, particularly since the revised rules had deleted the reference to the specific tread wear number. Thanks. Neon2dmaX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 Yeah, It has changed. but, it's suppost to make it simpler to understand.............. I THINK The Azenis Sport, Kumho MX and the new Hankook RS2 are not R Compound Tires so there's no points for them..... but they were all above 80 treadwear anyways. So, who knows. To be honest I don't know of any Non-R Compound Tires with less the 80 treadwear anyways. So, from what I see in the rules that is........ any tire can be used without getting any points.... but if you have DOT R Compound Tires its +5 (like Hoosier R3S04, Avon Tech R, and Kumho V710) and Non-DOT R Compound Tires (like Full slick Racing Tires) are +8. So, to answer you question...... YES/NO/MAYBE.... I don't know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted April 4, 2005 Author Share Posted April 4, 2005 Yeah, It has changed. but, it's suppost to make it simpler to understand.............. I THINK The Azenis Sport, Kumho MX and the new Hankook RS2 are not R Compound Tires so there's no points for them..... but they were all above 80 treadwear anyways. So, who knows. To be honest I don't know of any Non-R Compound Tires with less the 80 treadwear anyways. So, from what I see in the rules that is........ any tire can be used without getting any points.... but if you have DOT R Compound Tires its +5 (like Hoosier R3S04, Avon Tech R, and Kumho V710) and Non-DOT R Compound Tires (like Full slick Racing Tires) are +8. So, to answer you question...... YES/NO/MAYBE.... I don't know Hmm... that answer reminds me of the most common response to the survey question re: What is the biggest problem facing America today: Ignorance or Apathy? Most common response: I don't know and I don't care. Neon2dmaX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp99gt Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 The old rules were based on treadwear ratings. The new ones are based solely on tire compounding (R compounds or not, DOT or not). In the past, one could use R compounds with treadwear ratings of 81 or more and not be penalized. That wasn't a level playing field for tires. Now it's better, with the R compounds getting points across the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted April 5, 2005 National Staff Share Posted April 5, 2005 In the new rules, we purposely deleted the reference to treadwear rating because drivers were trying to say that Toyo RA-1's (an R-compound tire that a lot of NASA racers use), did not get the 5 point assessment because their rating was changed to 100 from 80. Well, RA-1's do get the 5 point assessment, and so will any other R-compound tire that comes along that the manufacturer manages to get a treadwear rating above 80. So, John, you guys should be assessing 5 points for all R compound tires up there (especially since I'm trying to get a large crew to come up to Sear's Point in August to compete with you guys, and we want to keep everything even.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted April 5, 2005 Author Share Posted April 5, 2005 Hmmm. I thought that the RA-1 had a tread were rating of 40 (or maybe 50). So is their any wear rating number that represents a clear line betwen DOT "R" compound tires and those that do not qualify as "R" compounds? I know that the Azenis, and its other competitors are about 200 wear rating. The old Toyo Proxes was about 180 as was the Yokohama A520. Some Bridgestones and Pirelli tires are rated at 140. So, is there a specific number that we can rely on? BTW, I have never felt that the Toyo RA-1 has been anywhere near the equivalent of some of the other DOT "R" compuound tires like the Hoosier or the Kumho V710. Neon2dmaX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted April 5, 2005 Members Share Posted April 5, 2005 Well, decide QUICK because im ready to buy a couple sets of tires!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Well, decide QUICK because im ready to buy a couple sets of tires!!! Any R-Compound with a DOT number gets you 5 points. Any R-Compounds without a DOT number gets you 8 points. If you don't want the points, run street tires. Treadwear ratings are confusing and misleading. If I'm a tire manufacturer, I can cut the tread .002" deeper and bump up the treadwear rating all the while the sticky tire compound and wear characteristics haven't changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted April 5, 2005 National Staff Share Posted April 5, 2005 I don't understand what the confusion is here. "R-compound DOT approved" means just what it says--a tire that is made out of "R" (Race) compound material, that is still street legal per DOT. There is no decision to be made here on our part, Shawn. All you have to decide is whether you want to use street tires (like Azenis), DOT R compounds, or race slicks. Dave, the treadwear rating of Toyo Proxes RA-1 (competition R compound race tire) is 100. I do not know of any R-compound tires that are currently higher than that, but that doesn't mean that there won't be any. The new Avon's are 40 and Dunlops are 60. The rule was specifically changed to include Toyo RA-1 race tires with the other R-compounds (which it is). The original rule that said 80 treadwear or less, did include the Toyos, but then Toyo changed their rating to 100, and TT drivers wanted 5 points credited back to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted April 5, 2005 Members Share Posted April 5, 2005 OK, maybe im just reading too much. It sounded like there was going to be a decsion regarding which tires woud have additional points added but, now that I read back thru the messages, I cant find that partictular message that led me astray. Must of been in my head! OK, that makes it easy! Never mind me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumball Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 In the new rules, we purposely deleted the reference to treadwear rating because drivers were trying to say that Toyo RA-1's (an R-compound tire that a lot of NASA racers use), did not get the 5 point assessment because their rating was changed to 100 from 80. Well, RA-1's do get the 5 point assessment, and so will any other R-compound tire that comes along that the manufacturer manages to get a treadwear rating above 80. So, John, you guys should be assessing 5 points for all R compound tires up there (especially since I'm trying to get a large crew to come up to Sear's Point in August to compete with you guys, and we want to keep everything even.) Greg, How else are we going to gain an advantage over you SoCal guys? I realize it will be at our home track but that might not be enough. Kidding aside, I'll make note of the changes. Hasn't been an issue.......... YET! Regards, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted April 8, 2005 Author Share Posted April 8, 2005 I don't understand what the confusion is here. "R-compound DOT approved" means just what it says--a tire that is made out of "R" (Race) compound material, that is still street legal per DOT. There is no decision to be made here on our part, Shawn. All you have to decide is whether you want to use street tires (like Azenis), DOT R compounds, or race slicks. That sounds o.k., but are the tires clearly marked as having "R" compound material? Since there are only about 6-8 brands that are DOT R tires, it might be easier to list them. Hoosier R3S03 & R3S04 Kumho Victoracer; ECSTA V700 & V710 Hankook Z211 Yokohama A032; A048; ?? Toyo RA-1 Avon ??? Goodyear ??? Goodrich ??? Any others ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted April 8, 2005 National Staff Share Posted April 8, 2005 Hoosier R3S03 & R3S04, A3S04 & A3S05, Radial Wet Kumho Victoracer V700; ECSTA V700, V710, R700? Hankook Z211 Yokohama A032R; Advan A048 Toyo Proxes RA-1 Avon Tech R Dunlop SP Supersport Race Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Pirelli P Zero Corsa Goodyear Eagle GS-CS Goodrich T/A R1 Any others ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp99gt Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Nitto RII's (road racing radial) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Hoosier R3S03 & R3S04, A3S04 & A3S05, Radial WetKumho Victoracer V700; ECSTA V700, V710, R700? Hankook Z211 Yokohama A032R; Advan A048 Toyo Proxes RA-1 Avon Tech R Dunlop SP Supersport Race Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Pirelli P Zero Corsa Goodyear Eagle GS-CS Goodrich T/A R1 Any others ??? You beat me to it Greg.... I was just making a list... LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted April 8, 2005 Author Share Posted April 8, 2005 Nitto RII's (road racing radial) Well, the Nitto 555RII which has a 100 treadwear rating. The Nitto brand is owned (and to my understanding manufactured) by Toyo. Thus, it probably should be lumped in with the Toyo RA-1. Hoosier R3S03 & R3S04, (A3S04 & A3S05)*, Radial Wet Kumho Victoracer V700; ECSTA V700, V710, (R700)* Hankook Z211 Yokohama A032R; Advan A048 Toyo Proxes RA-1 Avon Tech R Dunlop SP Supersport Race Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Pirelli P Zero Corsa Goodyear Eagle GS-CS Goodrich T/A R1 Any others ??? The tires marked with an asterisk (*) are probably not appropriate for road racing anyhow (e.g. the Kumho R700 is an on/off road tire to my understanding; the Hoosier tires are for autocross). But, if there is no majic number (e.g. 80 or ??) by which we can distinguish the R compound tires from those that are not R compounds, it would be nice to establish a list of those tires that fall within that category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp99gt Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Nitto RII's (road racing radial) Well, the Nitto 555RII which has a 100 treadwear rating. The Nitto brand is owned (and to my understanding manufactured) by Toyo. Thus, it probably should be lumped in with the Toyo RA-1. I strongly recommend you put the Nitto in the list. How will people, who don't know Toyo owns Nitto, know the two are similar tires? They don't even have similar tread patterns. The RII looks more like a Kumho MX than a Toyo RA1. If you're going to lump it in, at least mention it by name. Save us all some headaches later since it's not spelled out otherwise. Or you can answer all the email questions for the rest of us that we'll be sure to get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Hoosier R3S03 & R3S04, A3S04 & A3S05, Radial WetKumho Victoracer V700; ECSTA V700, V710, R700? Hankook Z211 Yokohama A032R; Advan A048 Toyo Proxes RA-1 Avon Tech R Dunlop SP Supersport Race Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Pirelli P Zero Corsa Goodyear Eagle GS-CS Goodrich T/A R1 Any others ??? Greg, I'm new but in all rules references that I see, you guys still list 80 TW as the cutoff point. I suggest making changes in all the appropriate areas to indicate clearly that ALL R compound tires will cost +5 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted May 19, 2005 National Staff Share Posted May 19, 2005 Dan, Neither the rules nor the TT classification sheets mention TWR 80 at all. I did find that the TT calculator program on the NASA main site does though. There are a bunch of corrections that are being made to the calculator, and that is one of them. Everyone should use the official rules as the ultimate source of information. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Dan,Neither the rules nor the TT classification sheets mention TWR 80 at all. I did find that the TT calculator program on the NASA main site does though. There are a bunch of corrections that are being made to the calculator, and that is one of them. Everyone should use the official rules as the ultimate source of information. Thanks, Thanks, Greg. Glad to hear you guys are working to get all info to coincide. I know it can be a real project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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