ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Hello all. My name is Simon and I have been a NASA member since 2007 and have been in Time Trials since 2009. NASA AZ does not have a consistant HC field but some locals have already committed to running HC in 2012. My current car is classed TTE (soon to be PTE:)) and here is the gearbox I am currently running: 94-01 GSR case 94-01 GSR mainshaft 94-01 GSR 1st gear (3.23) 94-01 GSR 2nd gear (1.9) 99-00 Si 3rd gear (1.458) 99-00 Si 4th gear (1.107) 92-93 GSR 5th gear (.875) 94-01 GSR countershaft and ring gear (4.4 FD) MFactory 2-way Now, my question is in regards to H2 gearing and what is/is not legal. I have read through the HC rules and would like some clarification on two of them: 8.4 d) Final drive ratio is unrestricted. All other gearing must remain OEM in part and gearing. 10.2 d) Any OEM transmission that bolts directly to the block may be used. Adaptor plates are not permitted. Internal gear ratios must remain OEM for that series of transmission expect for the final drive ratio. (typo in the rules, FYI) The way the rules are written, to me, are a little vague. Also, there are no examples. (For instance in 10.3-a where it states that you cannot mix/match JDM DOHC ZC pistons into a JDM SOHC ZC block with a D16Y8 head) The rules state "must remain OEM in part and gearing" and "Internal gear ratios must remain OEM for that series of transmission". I can assume that means no custom or aftermarket gears, obviously. However, does that mean ratios 1-5 have to all be from the same family (all B-Series if using B-Series engine/trans) or is it more specific that ratios 1-5 have to all match (1-5 all 94-01 GSR, 1-5 all 97-01 ITR, etc) To keep this simple: Is my gearbox H2 legal? My gut says no. If the answer is no, would this be legal: I have a 92-93 cable GSR YS1 trans and I would swap all the necessary guts (mainshaft and 1-5 gears) into my hydro GSR case. Therefore, I would have a 92-93 GSR trans inside a 94-01 GSR case. Hopefully this isn't confusing. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJO Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 There are quite a few examples of vague wording in the HC rules. In short, No, your transmission is not legal for HC. All gearing must be from the same make and model car, no mixing and matching. The Si gears would need to be changed back to GSR gears to be legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmeris Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 ...here is the gearbox I am currently running: 94-01 GSR case 94-01 GSR mainshaft 94-01 GSR 1st gear (3.23) 94-01 GSR 2nd gear (1.9) 99-00 Si 3rd gear (1.458) 99-00 Si 4th gear (1.107) 92-93 GSR 5th gear (.875) 94-01 GSR countershaft and ring gear (4.4 FD) MFactory 2-way Now, my question is in regards to H2 gearing and what is/is not legal. I have read through the HC rules and would like some clarification on two of them: 8.4 d) Final drive ratio is unrestricted. All other gearing must remain OEM in part and gearing. 10.2 d) Any OEM transmission that bolts directly to the block may be used. Adaptor plates are not permitted. Internal gear ratios must remain OEM for that series of transmission expect for the final drive ratio. (typo in the rules, FYI) The rules state "must remain OEM in part and gearing" and "Internal gear ratios must remain OEM for that series of transmission". I can assume that means no custom or aftermarket gears, obviously. However, does that mean ratios 1-5 have to all be from the same family (all B-Series if using B-Series engine/trans) or is it more specific that ratios 1-5 have to all match (1-5 all 94-01 GSR, 1-5 all 97-01 ITR, etc) To keep this simple: Is my gearbox H2 legal? My gut says no. If the answer is no, would this be legal: I have a 92-93 cable GSR YS1 trans and I would swap all the necessary guts (mainshaft and 1-5 gears) into my hydro GSR case. Therefore, I would have a 92-93 GSR trans inside a 94-01 GSR case. Hopefully this isn't confusing. Thanks in advance. Your transmission, IS INDEED LEGAL. Why? because, all your gears are OEM Honda Parts and your gears all belong to the B-Series family of transmissions. The rule reads: 10.2 H2 Limited Preparation Vehicles Only d) Any OEM transmission that bolts directly to the block may be used. Adaptor plates are not permitted. Internal gear ratios must remain OEM for that series of transmission except for the final drive ratio." It does NOT say that the individual gear ratios must remain the same for the MODEL of transmission, (i.e., S80, Y21, YS-1, etc.) but rather the SERIES of transmission, which are B-Series. jmeris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 3, 2011 Author Share Posted August 3, 2011 Your transmission, IS INDEED LEGAL. Why? because, all your gears are OEM Honda Parts and your gears all belong to the B-Series family of transmissions. The rule reads: 10.2 H2 Limited Preparation Vehicles Only d) Any OEM transmission that bolts directly to the block may be used. Adaptor plates are not permitted. Internal gear ratios must remain OEM for that series of transmission except for the final drive ratio." It does NOT say that the individual gear ratios must remain the same for the MODEL of transmission, (i.e., S80, Y21, YS-1, etc.) but rather the SERIES of transmission, which are B-Series. jmeris That was the same thinking I had when I was reading the rules. Hopefully this is true because it saves a bunch of money and time/labor on my part. (BTW - I originally built the trans the way I did for TTE and our small tracks here in Phoenix) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJO Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 And this is why the HC rules are sometimes vague and can be interpreted in different ways. I haven't messed with my gears, other than the FD because I thought it wasn't legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wm577 Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 it all depends on how the rules define the term "series". for example is a 4th gen prelude H22A in the same "series" as a 5th gen prelude H22A4? Is a 1999 GSR in the same "series" as a 1999 ITR? are all civics in the same series??? The term series needs to be defined in the rules IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Drew Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 it all depends on how the rules define the term "series". for example is a 4th gen prelude H22A in the same "series" as a 5th gen prelude H22A4? Is a 1999 GSR in the same "series" as a 1999 ITR? are all civics in the same series??? The term series needs to be defined in the rules IMO. I don't think it's reasonble to take "series" out from "series of transmission". The word "series" is tied to "transmission." To do so is taking the word out of context. From my limited understanding, "series of transmission" is talking about the model of the transmission and has nothing to do with the motor (ITR vs. GSR or H22A vs H22A4) that connects to the transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHIO4DRTEG Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 it all depends on how the rules define the term "series". for example is a 4th gen prelude H22A in the same "series" as a 5th gen prelude H22A4? Is a 1999 GSR in the same "series" as a 1999 ITR? are all civics in the same series??? The term series needs to be defined in the rules IMO. I agree the term is used very loosely in this context and needs to be defined. The way I understand the rules to read is that if you are running a GSR case you must run OEM GSR gears for that type of trans (minus final drive which is not in question here). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 Just to add to this: 94-01 GSR/97-01 ITR/94-01 LS/99-00 Si/94-97 del Sol VTEC trans cases are the exact same part numbers (21000-P21-020 and 21200-P21-505). All hydro trans cases are the same. 97-01 ITR and 99-00 Si 1-5 gears part numbers (mainshaft and all gears) are the exact same. 92-93 GSR 2-3-4 gears part numbers are the exact same as 99-00 Si/97-01 ITR/94-97 del Sol VTEC. The mainshaft/1st gear ratio/5th gear ratio are different. The 98+ JDM ITR trans is ITR 1-2-3 & GSR 4-5. However, to use the JDM 4.785 FD you HAVE to use a completely different 1st gear on the countershaft that only works with the JDM 4.785 FD. (2001 USDM ITR countershaft low gear - 23421-P21-000, 2001 JDM ITR countershaft low gear - 23421-P80-E30) Therefore, for people using the JDM ITR 4.785 FD, there would have to be an exception to a rule regarding mixing and matching gears, if this is the case. (Reference - http://hondaswap.com/reference-materials/jdm-itr-final-drive-part-list-29098/) (I know this to be a fact as well because I previously built my trans with B16 1-2-3 GSR 4th and cable LS 5th with the JDM 4.785 FD when the car was daily driven.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmeris Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 ...I haven't messed with my gears, other than the FD because I thought it wasn't legal. There's no need to mess with oem gears. The ITR "S80"/Civic SI "S4c"/Del sol vtec/JDM 2nd Gen "Y21" have the best ratio's anyway (they're the same) it all depends on how the rules define the term "series". for example is a 4th gen prelude H22A in the same "series" as a 5th gen prelude H22A4? Is a 1999 GSR in the same "series" as a 1999 ITR? are all civics in the same series??? The term series needs to be defined in the rules IMO. I don't think it's reasonble to take "series" out from "series of transmission". The word "series" is tied to "transmission." To do so is taking the word out of context. From my limited understanding, "series of transmission" is talking about the model of the transmission and has nothing to do with the motor (ITR vs. GSR or H22A vs H22A4) that connects to the transmission. The model of car/chassis doesn't have anything to do with the "series of transmission" whether it be GSR, Civic SI, ITR, Prelude, CVCC, Accord, Vigor. etc... "Series of Transmission" should be designated by the letter that precedes the number sequence in the transmission code-just like how the letters "B" and "K" precedes the numerical sequence/engine displacement in the B and K series engines (B16a2, B18c1, K20a2, K24a1, etc). For example, ALL (B-Series/DC2) Integra Type R transmissions are "S80" transmissions. Same with DC2/GSR transmissions, they are coded "S80". 99/00 Civic SI transmissions are the "S4c" transmission. With the letter "S" in front of the numerical sequence, this can be the designated ast the "S"-series transmissions. The 94-97 del sol VTEC and JDM EG Civic have "Y21" transmissions and the 92/93 GSR have "YS1" transmissions (albeit cable transmission.) Isn't it safe to say that these transmissions are "Y" Series transmissions? As per rules, if the "series of transmissions" must use oem parts, then "S" series transmissions can mix and match parts with other "S" series transmissions. As well as "Y" series transmissions can do so as well. In the case for the H-series/Prelude/Accord, most have "M" series transmissions (i.e. M2F4 transmission for 93-96 Preludes, M2Y4 for 97-01 Preludes), these should be able to mix and match parts as well, within the "M" series Transmissions used for the H or F-series engines. So, just like the Honda Engines with their "lettered" engine series (B-series, K-Series, D-Series, R-Series), the transmissions have their's as well (S-series, Y-Series, M-Series, etc). The body or chassis of car shouldn't have any bearing on what parts of the transmissions are allowed to be mixed and matched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHIO4DRTEG Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Are any of the HC directors going to weigh in on this ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Who should I send a message to/forward this thread to? My wallet and I are very curious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leland Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Who should I send a message to/forward this thread to? My wallet and I are very curious... im right there with ya. when i dig into the trans after this weekend id rather fix it then if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Who should I send a message to/forward this thread to? My wallet and I are very curious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmeris Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Who should I send a message to/forward this thread to? My wallet and I are very curious... Probably a good place to start is to email your group leader for your region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) Who should I send a message to/forward this thread to? My wallet and I are very curious... Probably a good place to start is to email your group leader for your region. Unfortunately, NASA AZ doesn't have a Honda Challenge group leader (since about 2007). I know our Regional Director fairly well but he's in the same boat I am: The rules are worded too vaguely to clearly define what is/is not legal. If it were up to our Race Group Co-Director that handles PT/ST classing, I bet he would say it is illegal without even giving an explanation as to why. Edited August 18, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinG Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Meris, I am in agreement with your interpretation, it's the same way in which I read the rule. Someone explained that the rules intention was to stop the mix-matching of the gear ratios from the various transmissions, but I told them that if that was their intention then they should only have 1 rule, Final Drive's are free...not the "series" transmission rule, the H4 rule is strictly FD, the H2 is Series + FD, and H1 is a bit more open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Meris, I am in agreement with your interpretation, it's the same way in which I read the rule. Someone explained that the rules intention was to stop the mix-matching of the gear ratios from the various transmissions, but I told them that if that was their intention then they should only have 1 rule, Final Drive's are free...not the "series" transmission rule, the H4 rule is strictly FD, the H2 is Series + FD, and H1 is a bit more open. In bold is exactly what I was thinking too. Thank you everyone for your replys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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