how many points for this?

[Ultimate Altima]

Hello, I've been involved in redesigning the front suspension of the saturn s-series cars. In stock form, the sway bar locates the front wheel fore and aft in the wheel well. This causes large amounts of bump steer and binding. The solution we (the engineering section of sixthsphere.com) have come up with is to weld a control arm pick up point as close to the original sway bar pivot as possible, and to use a custom lower control arm. The ball jont to be used is from a 97 Pontiac Gran Prix, and is taller than the oe Saturn ball joint, which cannot be removed from the factory control arm. This set up has never been built, and I am curious as to how many points would be given for doing this. My plans call for rod ends, instead of bushings, although that is subject to change. Also plans are to run this initially with no front sway bar, and no additional geometry correction (keep pick up points as close to stock as possible) or additional castor or castor adjustment built into the arms.

 

pics: basic rendering of new set up is in red over stock.: http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a216/ProDarwin/Engineering/LCA.jpg

 

Any help would be appreciated, thank you in advance.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

you have to login to see pic #1 - try rehosting

[wlfpkrcn1]

E7) Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (“sway” bars—front, rear, or both—may have spherical joints on the end

links and/or relocation of the mounting points without additional points assessment) +2

 

E9) Replace or modify control arms (other than plates, shims, slots, or eccentric bolts/bushings for simple camber/caster

adjustment only) or RWD/AWD rear trailing arms (may have spherical/metallic joint for the connection to the

spindle/knuckle) +4

 

E24) Metallic and/or spherical-design replacement suspension bushings +3

 

and potentially Based on this statement

and no additional geometry correction (keep pick up points as close to stock as possible)

 

E16) Relocation of front suspension mounting points +6

Edited August 4, 2011 by Guest

[TurboShortBus]

In addition to what wlfpkrcn1 has posted above, this would also apply based on the proposed use of the "taller" Pontiac Grand Prix ball joint:

 

E19) Alteration of ball joints/dive angles +2

 

If you can only "keep pick up points as close to stock as possible," then you might as well move them around as much as you like, since they will incur the same +6 points per E16. They must be exactly in the OEM locations in order to avoid those +6 points.

 

So, you're potentially looking at +17 points.

 

Mark

[wlfpkrcn1]

Doesn't E19 fall into the E9

 

E9) Replace or modify control arms (other than plates, shims, slots, or eccentric bolts/bushings for simple camber/caster

adjustment only) or RWD/AWD rear trailing arms (may have spherical/metallic joint for the connection to the

spindle/knuckle) +4

 

He would be modifying the control arm to accept a different ball joint, so does the BJ fall into it by default?

E19 would be for an offset BJ in a stock location?

[kbrew8991]

I would say they're separate

[TurboShortBus]

I see them as separate as well (as I have been told that Mustangs that use the "taller" Steeda X2 ball joints pay +2 per E19, in addition to all other applicable modification points). Even so, if it was only +15, is this modification worth that amount of points? That many points will buy you a lot of tires, power, and/or two base class stars.

 

To avoid the +2 per E19, just fabricate the front arm so that the OEM ball joint mounts in a higher location. But, since the OEM Saturn ball joint is apparently not a removable piece, you might be SOL in this regard.

 

Mark

[Greg G.]

It looks like +17 points to me also. Sounds like a modification for an ST class (or TTS/TTU), not a PT or lower TT class. That's a lot of points to eat to fix bump steer. But, if somehow it was worth 2-4 seconds a lap, it might be worth it.

[awdracer]

Sweep the leg.

[OHIO4DRTEG]

It looks to me like one of the mods you need to try to see how well it will work but retain your old setup so you can just switch back if you have to. Before I was into Hondas I was into to Chevys/ Saturns I would to know how this project works out for you and if there is anything I can do to help let me know my family owns a CNC Machine shop and Stamping House.

[Ultimate Altima]

Alright, thank you for the assistance. I'm going to be talking to one of the fabrication instructors at school about doing this.

 

Just to clarify, does E7 still apply if I put the stock front sway bar in a different place (problably a little up and forward of stock), and use some end links to attach it to the new lower control arm?

[TurboShortBus]

Just to clarify, does E7 still apply if I put the stock front sway bar in a different place (problably a little up and forward of stock), and use some end links to attach it to the new lower control arm?

E7) Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (“sway” bars—front, rear, or both—may have spherical joints on the end

links and/or relocation of the mounting points without additional points assessment) +2

Yes, because you are modifying it.

 

Mark

[hired wrench]

17 points.... or.....

 

14) Replaced or modified K-members that change the location of the lower control arms +8

 

I see where you are going with this.....

 

and.....

 

7) Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (“sway” bars—front, rear, or both—may have

spherical joints on the end links and/or relocation of the mounting points without additional

points assessment) +2

 

So instead of 17 or more points, you can do almost everything you want and more for 10 points

 

you should be able to replace the end of the sway bar with a spherical bearing and only take 2 points. That should get rid of most of the toe in and toe out on accel and decel and relocating the the bar slightly or pick up points should let you change the toe curve under compression and rebound.

 

So 10 points instead of 17 or more. You just got the skin the cat a little differently.

[TurboShortBus]

So 10 points instead of 17 or more. You just got the skin the cat a little differently.

You forgot about the other modifications that he listed:

... and to use a custom lower control arm.

^^^ +4 per E9

 

and:

The ball jont to be used is from a 97 Pontiac Gran Prix, and is taller than the oe Saturn ball joint, which cannot be removed from the factory control arm.

^^^ +2 per E19

 

and:

My plans call for rod ends, instead of bushings,

^^^ +3 per E24 (provided he intends to put the rod ends on the control arms instead of just on the sway bars)

 

Skinning the cat differently just got him to +19.

 

Mark

[hired wrench]

So 10 points instead of 17 or more. You just got the skin the cat a little differently.

You forgot about the other modifications that he listed:

... and to use a custom lower control arm.

^^^ +4 per E9

 

and:

The ball jont to be used is from a 97 Pontiac Gran Prix, and is taller than the oe Saturn ball joint, which cannot be removed from the factory control arm.

^^^ +2 per E19

 

and:

My plans call for rod ends, instead of bushings,

^^^ +3 per E24 (provided he intends to put the rod ends on the control arms instead of just on the sway bars)

 

Skinning the cat differently just got him to +19.

 

Mark

 

With a relocated pickup point on the inboard side of the arm, there is no need for the taller ball joint (roll center correction, and it could even be built to be adjustable on the modified sub frame)

 

The custom arm adds a pickup point to help the toe curve under compression and extension, but adding a spherical bearing to the end of the sway, and sticking with the OEM arm would serve the same purpose.

 

Adding a free mod to the strut tower/top of the strut to correct SAI and add caster would make the other changes he wants to make, w/o taking points. Adding caster on a Mac strut car by pushing the end of the arm forward is the wrong way to do it, especially as the wheel package, tire, and track get wider.

 

I know what he is trying to do/correct. I'm just showing him a different way to get the same/or close to the same result w/o having to take all the points. If he does it this way, most of the other modification won't be needed..... K.I.S.S principle

 

I think the "bump steer" is actually related more to bushing compliance/deflection than actual geometry changes as the suspension goes through it's movement.

 

That's how I would do it based on the rules and the desired outcome.

[TurboShortBus]

Either way, we probably need to see something better than a photo of the OEM part and a few lines in MS Paint to make an accurate determination here.

 

Mark

[hired wrench]

Either way, we probably need to see something better than a photo of the OEM part and a few lines in MS Paint to make an accurate determination here.

 

Mark

 

nah, FWD is an irrelevant non-factor in motorsports, MS paint is just fine