rotorhead87 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I am building up a RX-7 which I plan on running in some TT events. Due to modifications (porting, turbo upgrade) it is already in the TTS group. I have been planning since day 1 to run straight methanol injection. When I read through all of the rules I discovered that this is in no case allowed, which I am quite upset about since I am mostly running the methanol since it is, in my opinion, necessary for a rotary car to run reliably at high horsepower. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do about it being banned, so I ask: can I run alcohol injection using e85 obtained from a standard gas station? The system I am designing will be more robust than nearly all stock fuel systems, as I don't cut corners with things like this. It will be a full, separate fuel system utilizing a fuel cell, all stainless braided hoses with -an fittings, a fuel regulator with return line, and proper fuel injectors controlled by the same ECU as everything else. I don't to see how this would be a problem in a nearly unlimited class where e85 is already allowed (and I would even be open to running it in TTU if necessary) but I want to make sure that it will be legal before I invest a lot of time and money in this. Thank You Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted August 23, 2011 National Staff Share Posted August 23, 2011 I am building up a RX-7 which I plan on running in some TT events. Due to modifications (porting, turbo upgrade) it is already in the TTS group. I have been planning since day 1 to run straight methanol injection. When I read through all of the rules I discovered that this is in no case allowed, which I am quite upset about since I am mostly running the methanol since it is, in my opinion, necessary for a rotary car to run reliably at high horsepower. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do about it being banned, so I ask: can I run alcohol injection using e85 obtained from a standard gas station? The system I am designing will be more robust than nearly all stock fuel systems, as I don't cut corners with things like this. It will be a full, separate fuel system utilizing a fuel cell, all stainless braided hoses with -an fittings, a fuel regulator with return line, and proper fuel injectors controlled by the same ECU as everything else. I don't to see how this would be a problem in a nearly unlimited class where e85 is already allowed (and I would even be open to running it in TTU if necessary) but I want to make sure that it will be legal before I invest a lot of time and money in this. Thank You Did you see this in the TTS/TTU section, or only see the rule against them in TTA-TTF? 3) Nitrous Oxide use is prohibited. Pre-existing tanks must be removed. - 9 - Methanol/Alcohol-water injection is permitted provided that the mixture does not Exceed 50% alcohol by volume. Methanol is not permitted as a fuel (see CCR 15.19 and 18.5) As well retail E85 is permitted per the other section in TTA-TTF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotorhead87 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Thanks for the quick reply. I did see that section of the rule book. I had been planning on running 100% meth (since I would have been running a lot of it, about 30% of my fuel) until I Read in that section that it is outlawed, I assume on safety grounds. My question was with regards to where it says "alcohol" in that section. Is that referring to straight or denatured alcohol, or is e85 included in that as well? I am fairly certain that it says e85 can be used as a fuel since it is commercially available at gas stations. While what I am doing could technically be seen as "auxiliary injection" it is really a part of my fueling system. Rotaries have 2 pairs of injectors stock, and I am merely adding another pair of injectors that will work in parallel with the existing secondary injectors, controlled by the same ecu signal. The only difference is that the 3rd pair of injectors will be injecting e85, using a system that is actually more robust and safer than the existing stock fuel system. Is this still going to be rejected under the basis of "auxiliary injection" even though it is using a fuel that could already be the sole fuel for the engine? I am not trying to argue the ruling at this point (though I will petition for future rule changes if necessary, through the proper channels); I am merely making 100% sure on the legality of this before I go any further. Thank You Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted August 23, 2011 National Staff Share Posted August 23, 2011 It does sound ok on the surface if you are using E85, and we are talking about TTS/TTU/TTR. Someone smarter than me may come up with a protest point, and it would have to be dealt with then, but it does sound ok. As you stated, it is not ok to run straight methanol, nitromethane, jet fuel, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotorhead87 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 After some more research, it looks we may be getting an e85 station a few miles from my house within the next 6 months. If that is the case I will just switch it to run straight e85. Either way, I'm still curious about what they would say about my original inquiry. If I end up deciding to go that route I will follow up on it again. Thank You Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwalsh Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 just curious - why do the rules allow 50/50 water/meth injection in ttu but only water injection in tta-f? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Element Tuning Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 It's mostly misunderstood but higher concentrations of methanol increase octane, burn, and have potential to increase power substantially. In TTS-R this doesn't matter as those are adjusted power to weight ratio classes but TTF-A are points based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbow Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 It's mostly misunderstood but higher concentrations of methanol increase octane, burn, and have potential to increase power substantially. In TTS-R this doesn't matter as those are adjusted power to weight ratio classes but TTF-A are points based. Safety issue as well. methanol has a low flash point and the flames are nearly impossible to see. 50/50 with water is less likely to flash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Element Tuning Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 It's mostly misunderstood but higher concentrations of methanol increase octane, burn, and have potential to increase power substantially. In TTS-R this doesn't matter as those are adjusted power to weight ratio classes but TTF-A are points based. Safety issue as well. methanol has a low flash point and the flames are nearly impossible to see. 50/50 with water is less likely to flash. Sure safety is an issue but I think more specifically he was asking why is 100% water only allowed in TTF-A while 50/50 is allowed in TTS-R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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