Light on Fuel Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Hey Folks, I'm new to the whole performance driving thing and have a few questions. I've already asked a few about starting out on other forums and was told about this one in particular. (I drive a German ) I'm planning on doing my first HPDE this coming Spring and although it may be way too premature at this point; I'd like to start prepping my car to one day go w2w racing. I have nothing else to do on the car this coming winter and since it's not a daily, why not start working on the car (ie-gutting interior, scraping sound deadening, etc)? The car in question is an '01 VW GTI VR6. I already have a decent (but not great) suspension, better than stock brakes, and some power adders (yielding 213whp). I plugged my specs into that Excel file that tells what class a car should be in (mine said GTS3), but that seems a bit out of depth in terms of what the car is ultimately capable of doing (with any driver). Is this incorrect on my part? I guess what I'm getting at is this: Is this car actually worth contesting (someday) in GTS or should I just use it for my HPDE's while setting sights on something else more suitable? In all honesty, (and maybe it's cos I'm attached to it) I would prefer to contest this car because I know that in terms of power, a turbo 12v can easily and inexpensively yield over 600whp (relatively realiably) without swapping out the internals. However, I realize that this is just one component of an entire package and one "pro" usually doesn't outweigh many "cons." Any info/advice would be greatly appreciated. TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSG1901 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Hi Manny, and welcome. If you haven't already, you should probably look at the answers recently posted to a very similar question to yours, here: http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=47472 Short version of a long story: Less power is probably better than more in GTS (you can have less weight). Also, you can probably get your car back into GTS2. Regardless, it is expensive to try to convert a street car to the track. Unless you're rolling in money, a better approach is to buy somebody else's hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light on Fuel Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Hey Scott, thanks for the info. After reading your post and the attached link, it does appear that buying a "turn key" is the most financially practical option. However, being a person who enjoys working with their hands, it also seems less rewarding. I'm sure though that after a season of turning wrenches on the car it will begin to feel more and more my own. One of my concerns though is the condition of the car. Obviously when buying used a red flag is always thrown up when you believe that the car in question lived a hard life. So it's pretty easy to know what to look and watch out for. Where it gets foggy for me is how to apply that knowledge when buying a vehicle that you know lived a hard life. I know that it's preferable to buy a car that comes with a log book. But what else should I be looking for? Also, I checked the "For Sale" forum on this site. Do you know of any others that I can visit to broaden my search? Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Most will tell you that buying someone elses race car is far cheaper than building. That may be true, but from my perspective not the whole story. Used race cars have many items that are houred out and in need of upgrade and repair. I would estimate spending an average of 25% of the purchase price to get the vehicle race ready. Safety equipment, wheel bearings, shock rebuilds, suspension bushings, brake pads, engine refreshing...............and that is without ANY upgrades If you can buy a good "base" race car it will cut the time and money investment significantly. Then you can do the rehab/upgrading/swapping/selling as you see fit and arrive at the car you desire. Now......what kind of car are you looking for? Most brands have a sizeable wesbite/forum base to peruse, plus eBay and word of mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light on Fuel Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 what kind of car are you looking for? Most brands have a sizeable wesbite/forum base to peruse, plus eBay and word of mouth. I would love to have a Porsche. But in all reality, that's way out of reach at the moment. I saw a few of BMW's for sale, but they really aren't my thing (no offense to the BMW guy out there). I'd prefer to have something within the VAG. I looked on VWVORTEX but it's mostly just tuner cars which serves no use to me being that I already have one. What would really help me decide on a direction is more information about what is required to race. Not just a rule book that has regulations, but more of a DIY that clearly defines what is mandatory to go racing and how to go about accomplishing those objectives. It makes it really hard to nail down a plan when all you have is an end result devoid of a clear beginning and middle. Are there any websites that can guide people like me through the process? I have been doing a ton of reading an research but I've yet to come across a comprehensive guide. I'd even be open to visiting and lending a hand to any one local to me just so I can learn a few things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I think Dave Gran's site ( http://www.goaheadandtakethewheel.com ) may have a checklist or article along those lines. But basically its going to be: Car wise - cage - seat - harness - fire extinguisher or fire supression system - other misc stuff like nets, rollbar padding, etc. - if you want to race specifically in GTS then you'll need a car that conforms to their rulebook of course. Driver wise: - fire suit - shoes & socks - gloves - helmet (& head sock though not required its nice to have the extra protection plus it keeps the helmet nicer longer) - SFI38.1 approved Head & Neck restraint (Safety Solutions, HANS brand, DeFender, etc) - race license Feel free to chime in if I've left off anything major the NASA CCRs will have detailed specifications, guidelines, etc for each and every thing you need. Its a bit much to try and take it all in at once though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light on Fuel Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 I think Dave Gran's site ( http://www.goaheadandtakethewheel.com ) may have a checklist or article along those lines.... ^That's actually the very first thing that I read. It's a great resource and starting point, but the author doesn't really go into any great depth on any particular subject. But then again, I dont think that was ever his intent. It seemed to be more of a primer to introduce people such as myself to the sport by highlighting each area of importance with a brief description. Another good resource is Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley (which I just finished). I just started reading Secrets of Solo Racing. Feel free to chime in if I've left off anything major the NASA CCRs will have detailed specifications, guidelines, etc for each and every thing you need. Its a bit much to try and take it all in at once though... I'll try to give that a crack. I have to deal with specifications all day at work (I'm an Architect [unfortunately]) so I was hoping there would be more of a layman-type guideline. I'm sure that if I have any issues or questions I can post them here. Everyone on here seems very willing to help and offer advice, which is greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSCoupe Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Manny, I will have to second the comment on reading the CCR. It is our "instruction manual" if you will, and has a lot of important information in it. Everything from car prep, to driver etiquette, and infractions and their possible penalties. Please, please, please, READ IT! As far as building vs. buying, all of the points mentioned above are good. The best of both worlds is to find a race car that someone is building, but has decided to give up on. It gives you the hands-on side of it, and also the potential for the important parts to be new. As far as a car on the VAG side goes, VW's are generally front wheel drive, which isn't ideal for GTS. I'm a bit biased towards Audi, but they have their inherent issue of being nose heavy. If I were going to start over and build a new car, it would probably be a Porsche Cayman; great handling, and can produce serious power with great reliably, with a stock motor. But as with anything P-car related, not cheap. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light on Fuel Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Please, please, please, READ IT! Absolutely. I'm sure that many of the questions I have can be answered there and as stated above: I will post any additional questions I may have. As far as a car on the VAG side goes, VW's are generally front wheel drive, which isn't ideal for GTS. Wow. I have to admit that I'm a bit dissapointed in that. I had already started planning (in my head) to buy and A1 GTI and drop my current motor in it. But there's really no point in building a car that won't be competitive once my skills are developed. I can do an Audi. It's essentially a VW and offers a great deal of interchangablility in terms of parts (electronic and otherwise). A P-car is definitely out of the question. Architect (remember?) with two kids. So it's either I find a car that I feel I can one day be competitive in this series with or find a series where I can be competitive with the FWD format. I like the idea of an all German series, but I also like my GTI's? Would an R32 (basically an AWD GTI) be competitive in GTS or is it simply that the dimensions of the car is what's working against it in terms of balance? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSCoupe Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 ...A P-car is definitely out of the question. Architect (remember?)... I am too, so I feel your pain. A GTS1 944 would't be that expensive, and so far, about the only high tech "battle" in GTS1 has been the development of aero. Get the car really light and you don't have to worry about power all that much. ...Would an R32 (basically an AWD GTI) be competitive in GTS or is it simply that the dimensions of the car is what's working against it in terms of balance?... I'm not sure how reliable the stock Haldex system is in racing application, but there is a high power (turbo) one that runs in our region (HPDE/TT), but it also has a ton of money into it too. Our former GTS National Director, Ian Cole, ran a GTI, but I'm not sure how competitive it was. You might reach out to him for feedback on that particular car. I didn't mean to say a FWD car would be bad, it's just not ideal. Basically, it really doesn't matter what car you drive, as long as you are having fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 A GTS1 944 would't be that expensive Some might beg to differ................. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-used-parts-sale-wanted/630324-parting-out-race-car.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light on Fuel Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 ...A P-car is definitely out of the question. Architect (remember?)... I am too, so I feel your pain. You're also an Architect? Ouch, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light on Fuel Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 A GTS1 944 would't be that expensive Some might beg to differ................. It's all relative, I think. Meaning to say that what a person may or may not consider expensive is subjective. But to be honest, I was looking at those numbers in that link and they're not that bad in comparison to what I can spend on my GTI. For example: -Header: one that actually works for my car (unequal length) non-coated would cost more than the $300 he spent. It's more like $1500+. -JE pistons: pretty much what I'd expect to pay for my car. -Cams: Schrick cams would run me about $400 more than he spent. -Flywheel: $200 more -rear bumper: $400-$500 more. So really, aside from buying the car, it's probably cheaper to build the 944. Because just going down his list of prices, equivalent parts for my car are either in the same range or several hundred dollars more. The expensive part for me would be buying the car. Not to mention, where to store it because I'm not getting rid of my GTI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTL Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 For reference, Matt Markowicz (sp?) runs an Audi A4 awd 2.0 turbo in GTS-2 and does quite well with it. He does very well when it rains! The numbers you quoted for GTI parts prices are in line with older Por$che costs. So I don't think you'd have a hard time making the switch to a 944. I have an old 911 and the prices aren't outrageous either. Key for me is doing all the work myself- body, "fabrication" (if you can even call it that...), suspension, engine, blah blah blah. I'm a municipal engineer and a cheap mofo, so i'm not rolling in greenbacks. Just need to know who's a good source for the stuff you need. For instance Ed Baus is a great guy for Porsche parts. I can get a good used oil pump for my engine at 1/3 cost of new from him. Good used parts and self labor makes a HUGE difference in being able to afford this absurd hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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