Licensing confusion - please learn me!

[MadFrog]

I completed my SCCA schools and sent a copy of my signed off novice permit to NASA national (along with the other documentation and the check for fifty bucks, natsch). I plan on racing with both organizations, at Summit point mostly.

 

According to the information posted here:

http://www.honda-challenge.com/drivers/licensing.php

 

I should have gotten back a National Competition license.

 

Instead I received a provisional license, with no school requirements signed off.

 

So, can I race on that? Do I still need to complete a NASA comp school even though I have already successfully completed both my SCCA schools? Why didn't I get a national license?

The GCR information indicates a "completed" SCCA novice permit (vague: schools completed, or the additional 2 races completed as well?) and that may or may not contradict the information on the ECHC web site that I linked above.

 

What gives?

 

Also, the fact that there is no link from the "national" HC site to any regional site makes me believe that maybe the ECHC site is obsolete? If so, it should be taken down with a redirect to the national site.

 

Sebastien, who wishes for consistency.

[turboice]

Were you at the March WDCR SP school? I was in the white 240sx.

 

Might wish for consistency but be glad - most difficulties participating in both organizations originate from SCCA politics, not the other way around.

 

NASA is a CCR not a GCR.

 

13.1.2.1 and 13.1.4.1 - my interpretation of these sections is that they are that they are a substitute for 13.1.1. 1-4

 

Though I would have thought the ready to race on the provisional would have been included. Call national to verify. Also since you plan on running at SP - contact Chris Cobetto. He may have the authority under the CCR to sign off your ready to race status based on any prior NASA events you have participated in with mid-Atlantic and the completion of your two SCCA driver's schools. That may even have been NASA national's intent since the provisional is only good for the region it is received in, national may have been expecting you to get signed off as ready to race with your region under the provisional standards. Of course this is all speculation on my part. Contact Chris Cobetto and he will tell you exactly what you need to do to race in the mid-Atlantic region.

 

Regarding 14.1.3 for a competition license I would not take that as vague. The highlighting of completed makes it pretty unambiguous in my mind that their intent under 14.1.3 is that you have completed your novice permit requirements. This would differentiate from the provisional requirements and be consistent with 14.1.2 requiring a license. Submitting your completed novice permit is the equivalent of submiting an SCCA regional license.

 

HTH

 

(did I mention call Chris Cobetto seriously he is the best person to answer your questions if you want to run at SP)

 

Oh and if you have to take a NASA competition school it is a good thing, not a bad thing. Take all the help you can get from competitors while they are willing to give it.

[MadFrog]

yeah, I was in the blue #99 civic.

 

whatever way it works is fine. I'll obey whatever the rules are to play in any particualr sandbox. However, I am seeing two sets of contradictory rules in two versions of the rules for the same sandbox.

 

this has nothing to do with NASA/SCCA politics. Although, since you mention it, the NASA CCR bears a strong resemblance to the SCCA GCR, and so do a lot of their forms.

whatever.

 

I just want to know what the rules are. that's all

 

I have talked to chris serveral times before. I have done NASA HPDEs off and on since 2002, all but one at Summit. I haven't talked to him about this yet, I just got the permit in the mail. and I am perplexed.

 

thanks.

S.

[slammed_93_hatch]

http://www.nasaproracing.com/aboutnasa/regions.html

 

find you regional direct and contact them, they will be able to answer your question.

 

out here in nor cal the way i understand it is, you get your provisional license, then you must race with that for so many races ( i think 6) after that period of time, they inspect and review your races and if everything is clear and ok i think you get your national Competition license.

 

again this is just the way i THINK things work. Even though you have your license from another sactioning body nasa wants to be sure that you can race cleanly with them.

[civicrr]

Hmmm....according to section 14.1.3, you should qualify for a NASA National License. I would email Dave Ho @ National. He is in charge of the licensing.

[MadFrog]

CCR:

13.1 Issuance of a NASA Provisional License

NASA Provisional Licenses are issued from the NASA Regional Office, and are only

honored at events hosted by the Region of issuance. To be considered for a Provisional

License, the driver must complete one of the following conditions:

 

[...]

 

13.1.2 SCCA Regional Licensing program:

1. Submit a copy of their Novice Permit.

2. Submit a copy of their driver’s license.

3. Submit a copy of their Physical Examination Form.

4. Submit the appropriate fee.

 

[...]

 

13.1.5 Provisional Licenses Completion:

Once a driver has been issued a Provisional License, he/she will only be allowed to

compete in those events hosted by the Region of issuance.

 

The way this reads I should be able to send a blank novice permit with no school completions and get a provisional license to enable me to enter regional races.

 

 

14.1 Issuance of NASA Competition License

NASA Competition Licenses are only issued from the NASA National Office, and are

honored by all Regions. Each license candidate must meet one of the following sets of

conditions:

 

[...]

 

14.1.2 SCCA or IMSA (PSR) license holders

Regional, National, Pro:

1. Submit a copy of their current SCCA or IMSA (PSR) license.

2. Submit a copy of their state driver’s license.

3. Submit a copy of their last Physical Exam Form.

4. Submit the appropriate license fee.

5. Submit an Application for Competition License

14.1.3 SCCA completed Novice Permit holders:

1. Submit a copy of their completed Novice Permit.

2. Submit a copy of their state driver’s license.

3. Submit a copy of their completed SCCA (or approved) Physical Exam Form.

4. Submit the appropriate license fee.

5. Submit an Application for Competition License

Note: All Physical Examinations shall be renewed and resubmitted as per the instruction

sheet (page one) of the Physical Examination Form.

 

 

the way 14.1.2 reads, if i have a full regional SCCA license (which is the same thing as a COMPLETED novice permit = 2 schools + 2 races) I can have a national NASA license. Done.

 

And, in 14.1.3, if i have a completed SCCA novice permit (since it is differentiated from a SCCA license, I can only ass-u-me that means completed SCHOOL requirements) I can also get a full-fledged NASA national license.

 

Furthermore,

ECHC web site:

SCCA Novice Permit with COMPLETED school requirements

This satisfies ALL of the NASA driver school requirements. You may submit paperwork for a NASA National License.

 

this is from the link I previously supplied.

 

 

So, this is why I though t I would be getting an actual license.

I will call Dave Ho this morning and find out what the real deal is. However, if I may make a suggestion: this REALLY needs to be clarified so as to eliminate confusion. I have heard a lot of people tell me one way, then the other. And the people in this forum don't seem to agree either. This should be straightened out.

[NASA Jim]

I should have gotten back a National Competition license. Instead I received a provisional license, with no school requirements signed off.

 

It is likely that your school requirement has been fulfilled. Call the National Office to confirm, but you are probably ok.

 

Yes, you can race on a provisional license.

 

Everyone gets a provisional license first.

 

Everyone starts out on Rookie status.

 

Each time you race, you get signed off if you raced cleanly. After 4 races (when your Rookie Book (aka Provisional License)) is full, you mail it to National and they will send you a Competition License. You will still be on Rookie status for 4 more races, so you need to race cleanly.

[civicrr]

Sebastien,

A completed Novice Permit means that it is ready to be sent in to SCCA to get your Regional. Their Novice Permit is like the NASA Provisional License.

 

School requirements are different than completing your Novice Premit. Section 13.1.4 of the CCR says if you complete an NASA or SCCA accrediated school, you can apply for a Provisional.

 

Since National is the CCR & National takes care of licensing, if there are discreptencies between the CCR & the ECHC page......

 

BTW, this forum, like others is full of people offering help & opinions. The only people who are 'officials' are NASA Jim & myself. I think we agree on the correct procedure.

[MadFrog]

thank you for clarifying.

 

now, it appears obvious that the procedure is not clear, and that there is contradictory information to be found.

what can be done to fix this. I would be more than happy to make suggestions on re-wording the CCR in a way that *I* would think is clear.

 

The next step would be to either fix the ECHC web site, or ?

 

Let me know if I can help eliminating future confusion.

[civicrr]

Any suggestions would be welcome. I will happily forward them on to National. Keep in mind that by trying to address the many paths to the comp. license, there will always be multiple 'explanations'. Perhaps stating that you pick the 'one' path that best fits on the preface will work. Kind of like taking a multiple question exam. There are many that could work but only one that fits best.

 

As to the ECHC site, I guess either you or I need to point out to John W or Pete C that part of the page doesn't match the CCR.

[MadFrog]

13.1.2 SCCA Regional Licensing program:

1. Submit a copy of their Novice Permit.with completed school requirements

2. Submit a copy of their driver’s license.

3. Submit a copy of their Physical Examination Form.

4. Submit the appropriate fee.

 

14.1.2 IMSA (PSR) license holders

Regional, National, Pro:

1. Submit a copy of their current IMSA (PSR) license.

2. Submit a copy of their state driver’s license.

3. Submit a copy of their last Physical Exam Form.

4. Submit the appropriate license fee.

5. Submit an Application for Competition License

14.1.3 SCCA License holders (Regional, National, Pro) and SCCA completed Novice Permit holders:

1. Submit a copy of their license or completed Novice Permit.

2. Submit a copy of their state driver’s license.

3. Submit a copy of their completed SCCA (or approved) Physical Exam Form.

4. Submit the appropriate license fee.

5. Submit an Application for Competition License

Note: All Physical Examinations shall be renewed and resubmitted as per the instruction

sheet (page one) of the Physical Examination Form.

[turboice]

Might as well qualify/expand on the section 14 "completed" to mean the two schools and two regionals required for regional licensing.

 

Also this thread would likely serve the forum better in Q&A - as it is more broad than an HC issue.

[civicrr]

S,

Good work. I will forward suggestions to National. I don't know if they will be updated now or for 2006. Sooner is better to me.

 

T,

I don't think we can put the two schools, etc in. We (NASA) doesn't dictate what their requirements are. We are just giving it recongnition.

 

added in edit: Don't worry about putting this in the Q & A. I have already talked to Dave (again). I am sure that NASA Jim will check up on this. I will talking to Ryan this afternoon about an unrelated subject as well. I will bring this up.

 

Mike

[MadFrog]

Mike, if you don't want to tie in the specifics of SCCA reqs, maybe you can expand the section to : (addition to the addition bold and underlined)

 

14.1.3 SCCA License holders (Regional, National, Pro) and SCCA completed Novice Permit holders:

1. Submit a copy of their license or completed Novice Permit. (both School and Race requirements)

2. Submit a copy of their state driver’s license.

3. Submit a copy of their completed SCCA (or approved) Physical Exam Form.

4. Submit the appropriate license fee.

5. Submit an Application for Competition License

Note: All Physical Examinations shall be renewed and resubmitted as per the instruction

sheet (page one) of the Physical Examination Form.

[turboice]

My point was to clarify what was meant by "completed" MF's further modification above would work.

[NASA Jim]

Here's the easy way to look at things: ignore what is on the ECHC page. It is wrong and misleading.

 

The authority on licensing is the CCR. You can download it for free here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

 

Check out section 13.0 on page 50. The following section has details on going from your Provisional License to the Competition License. You've been to an SCCA accredited school and have your Provisional License.

 

Now you just have to go race! Be sure that you turn your Provisional License into the Race Director for each race. He/she'll sign you off for each clean race.

 

All the info is in the CCR; read the rules.