Modification ?'s after fallout

[Pat L.]

Obviously "questionable" modifications are going to arrise as the directors start to take a closer look at the competitors cars in Time Trial. I have a couple questions about this which pertain to my car/situation:

 

A Time Trial competitor was awarded points for modification he had done to his car which enabled him to fit larger wheels/tires under his fenders; apparently a control arm or spindle was clearanced to make room for the larger tires. For my own info, there is no mention of "rolling" or "pulling" factory fenders in the Time Trial rules, only reference to lightweight body panels. Is it understood that rolling the fenders is an accepted practice for all competitors and therefore no points are awarded for this modification?

 

Regarding Suspension Rule #8 (relocated suspension mount points), my car has two different mounting points for the front, lower control arms; inner and outer. I use the factory, inner mounting points, but because the k-member supports another mounting orrientation that would alow me to get another ~2 inches of front track, would I be awarded any points?

 

Some model years of my car (Audi S4) came with aluminum front spindles as opposed to cast steel. There is actually little or no difference in weight, however, the upper curvature of the aluminum spindle is slightly thinner which allows for several more mm's of wheel/tire clearance. Would I be awarded points for changing?

 

I was wondering if the powers at be would consider expanding the Engine/Drivetrain Rule #12 to break up specific modifications such as "port match", "larger valves", "physically larger ports", "replaced cam or cams", "replaced valve springs", etc... I'd like to replace my intake cams, but am holding off because I don't want to eat 4 points for very minimal gain.

 

Thanks

 

BTW, I would just like to offer my $.02 regarding last month's "incident":

 

I think it's amazing what some guys will do for a plastic medallion… If anyone wants one that bad I think a better use of time would be to attend a driving school rather than sawing away integral parts of your car's chassis. I wish the individual in question all the best at his future unsanctioned track events; it may be just the small pond he's been searching for.

[FocusTed]

Obviously "questionable" modifications are going to arrise as the directors start to take a closer look at the competitors cars in Time Trial. I have a couple questions about this which pertain to my car/situation:

 

A Time Trial competitor was awarded points for modification he had done to his car which enabled him to fit larger wheels/tires under his fenders; apparently a control arm or spindle was clearanced to make room for the larger tires. For my own info, there is no mention of "rolling" or "pulling" factory fenders in the Time Trial rules, only reference to lightweight body panels. Is it understood that rolling the fenders is an accepted practice for all competitors and therefore no points are awarded for this modification?

 

Regarding Suspension Rule #8 (relocated suspension mount points), my car has two different mounting points for the front, lower control arms; inner and outer. I use the factory, inner mounting points, but because the k-member supports another mounting orrientation that would alow me to get another ~2 inches of front track, would I be awarded any points?

 

Some model years of my car (Audi S4) came with aluminum front spindles as opposed to cast steel. There is actually little or no difference in weight, however, the upper curvature of the aluminum spindle is slightly thinner which allows for several more mm's of wheel/tire clearance. Would I be awarded points for changing?

 

I was wondering if the powers at be would consider expanding the Engine/Drivetrain Rule #12 to break up specific modifications such as "port match", "larger valves", "physically larger ports", "replaced cam or cams", "replaced valve springs", etc... I'd like to replace my intake cams, but am holding off because I don't want to eat 4 points for very minimal gain.

 

Thanks

 

BTW, I would just like to offer my $.02 regarding last month's "incident":

 

I think it's amazing what some guys will do for a plastic medallion… If anyone wants one that bad I think a better use of time would be to attend a driving school rather than sawing away integral parts of your car's chassis. I wish the individual in question all the best at his future unsanctioned track events; it may be just the small pond he's been searching for.

 

Any modification that is not specifically allowed by the rules, it is prohibited, unless permission is obtained from the NASA TT Director.

 

But if it is OEM... I can't see why you can't move it or adjust it.... But we'll have to wait for Greg's answer.

Edited May 13, 2005 by Guest

[Greg G.]

Pat,

Good questions, and I appreciate the wise comments.

 

As far as rolling the fender lips is concerned, I have stated on many occasions that it is legal (for everybody, not just SRT4 owners ), as long as the original body lines are kept pristine. This is the typical rule that one finds in most of our race classes, and I wanted it to be fair across the board for racers that ran in TT, and non-racers. I will look to add this notation to the next round of rules revisions (probably at the end of the year).

 

As far as the suspension mount points are concerned, I would say that you need to use the factory setting to avoid extra points. This is a unique situation as far as I know, and very interesting that there are two possible mounting points on a stock street car. I would be willing to hear input from other TT Directors (and Audi owners) if there is a good argument as to why the outer mount points should be allowed without a points assessment.

 

In general, updating and backdating of parts is allowed between model years as long as the model years are in the same base class. However, one cannot start taking parts off a higher base class model (like taking parts from a '04 S4 for use on a '03 S4 that is in one base class lower than the '04). Also, the general rule in a lot of NASA race classes is that if you do update or backdate, you must use the entire component as it came on the car you are taking it from. In other words, you can't take a piece here and a piece there to basically build a custom component that never existed on an OEM car. In your example of using the spindle from another year model, it would be ok if 1) it was not a factory option, and came as a stock part on a different model year and 2) if you also use the same hub assembly that came with that spindle. The reason that we allow this type of updating and backdating is to make sure that at least in a given base class, that every driver of a specific model of vehicle will be able to be on an equal footing.

 

As far as the "other internal engine mods +4" modification is concerned, we can certainly look at expanding this for the next year. However, FYI, I would probably give +4 for a change in cams on a turbo car anyway. In practice, I've seen this mod get used fairly, however, an engine builder that took advantage of every possible "other" that isn't listed as getting points already, could probably build an engine under this rule that should get an extra 8-20 points (in terms of better hp, etc). So, in order to prevent that, we might need to be more specific on this next year. The tough thing to do would be to assign points for each of the specific items. Aftermarket valve springs may do little for one type of car, and do alot for another one. Cam changes can be the same way. But, we should think more about this issue during the year, and look for possible changes in 2006.

[Pat L.]

Greg,

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

The aluminum spindle was on the '00 model year S4's, it was replaced with steel for the '01 model year, then Audi switched back to aluminum on the later '02 models (coincidentally, I believe it's the same spindle used on the '04 model). So with the ability to "backdate"/"update" I'd be able to switch, assuming I use the bolt-in wheel bearing as opposed to the press-in bearing used on the steel spindles. Cool.

 

Re: cams,

The intake cams I'd like to use are off an Audi "RS4"; it's an OE cam and conforms to European smog and gas mileage guidelines. Because Lunati, Crower, Comp. Cams, etc... don't make replacements for Audi valvetrain, I'm somewhat limited in regards to upgrades. I agree that a skilled engine builder can really "wake up" a turbo motor with a cam change, but I feel that in my case the upgrade wouldn't be worth the points awarded. I have no insightful suggestions for expanding the internal engine modification rule, but there's time to think it over for next year.

 

Also, has anyone thought about awarding point(s) for types of fuel used or is that going too far? I know that some of the monster small and big block motors can turn the same, big numbers on pump gas, but for guys like myself who run forced induction, 100+ octane is a necessity on the track.

[jp99gt]

I would be willing to hear input from other TT Directors (and Audi owners) if there is a good argument as to why the outer mount points should be allowed without a points assessment.

 

With a 2" change in the front track, I would definitely assess the points - that is significant.

[Pat L.]

Jim,

 

I agree with you, I have seen guys use the outboard mounts and while there is a large increase in track, the more important side effect is the castor/camber that can be gained. I can't get any more than ~3.5 degrees of negative front camber while still keeping at least 5 degrees of castor. If I could use the outside mount, I could run much more castor.

 

Do you guys have a large group of TT'ers in the mid west?

[jp99gt]

It's a sizable group of 15+ in the OH/IN region, and growing again. Our group was up to 30+ last year when we split off the new Midwest region and some of our TT'ers moved up to race series.

 

I expect to be back up to 20-25 by year's end, and large enough next year to have our own on track grouping.