angrytick Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 That about as specific a subject as I can make it I'm looking for an affordable treadware 200 track day tire, and the NT05 looks like a pretty good compromise. These tires will be driven to/from the track, and used for HPDE sessions only. Once I know what I'm doing, I have a set of NT01s in storage, but for the next year, I'm following the sage advice of many of you on this forum, and trying to learn what the hell I'm doing first. However. the recommended "best" tire size for my 18x9 wheels (American Muscle GT500 style) up front is 255/40, and the closest sizes the NT05 is available in is 245/40 or 265/35. For use on road courses, for HPDE, is there a significant difference between these sizes, and which one should I use? Should I keep shopping untilI find something available in the "best" sizes for these wheels, and use only 255/40, or can I get away with using one of these available NT05 sizes? I would assume smaller is better up front, and go with 245/40, for example. But I'm a noob, so that's why I'm asking (OK, not a total noob.... Does 4 days at Lime Rock Park and 2 at NJMP this year get me out of noob status yet? This is probably the wrong place to ask and get the answer I'm hoping for... FWIW, the rear wheels are 18x10, and the recommended 275/40s are available in the NT05. That's why I'm not asking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrytick Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 Oops -- if it matters, the recommended size for front tires on my 18x9 GT500 knock offs is 255/45, NOT 255/40, as I posted. And I *tried* to get the technical details right.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TowDawg Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I went from 275's to 295's on the front and it definitely gave me better turn-in. My R6's are actually 305's for track days. In general, you want all 4 tires to be as close to the same width, without giving up available grip in the rear. 305 is about as wide as I can go in the front though. No chance of stuffing 345's up there. If the optimum tire size for your fronts is 255, I would definitley go with the 265's over the 245's. That is assuming they will fit without clearance issues. They will fit the wheels fine, I mean you need to make sure they will fit the car OK and not rub the fenders or anything. I'm sure somebody with a Mustang can chime in on that, but I know you can definitely fit pretty wide tires up front as long the offset on the wheels is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrytick Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 The wider sizes will fit into the Mustang's wheel wells -- I've seen plenty of posts from the tune-n-show crowd (you know, the cars that look way too good to actually take onto a race track? with examples of people putting MUCH wider tires into the front and back. However, if I go with the 265s up front, then those tires will not be mounted even with the rim of the wheel, while the 275s in back would be. In order to have a similar appearance in the back, it would seem like I should go from 275 to 285, so that the tires have the same profile from the side. That's largely cosmetic, of course. I'm getting conflicting advice as I search the web on this subject. I've seen some people insist that a narrower tire up front improves handling, but that's pretty counter intuitive to me. I would have thought that, as you suggest, a wider tire would give you more grip, not less. In the back, it makes sense to have a wider tire for putting power down, too. If I went with the slightly wider sizes, then I'm using (again, this is the available NT05 sizes): Front: 265/35R18 Back: 285/35R18 If anyone has some links to reference material on how changing the tire sizes affects handling on road courses, I'd love to see them. I'm still looking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 My suggestion is to run 275s on all four corners on the same size wheel. Don't let the Z06 in my signature fool you, I have owned Mustang GTs and Cobras for most of the past 24 years. My track car prior to this Corvette was a 99 Cobra. The Mustang platform is designed to have a push in it from the factory. Let's face it, it is safer to engineer a push into the suspension geometry for the masses that buy this car and daily drive it. In order to help get rid of some of that push and learn how to ROTATE the car (ie make it turn), you need to effectively give up some grip on the rear. Going to a staggered tire setup with wider meat on the rear and not changing any suspension geometry is only going to make the inherent push that much worse. And teach you bad habits. If you will put 275s on all four corners, you will increase your grip up front which will help with turn-in and mid-corner apexing. If you will keep the same size on the rear, that will also help with turn-in and mid-corner because it will allow the car to have slightly less ratio grip and rotate when you ask it to. The downside is you are going to have to learn to be judicious with stomping the loud pedal on trackout which is something you shouldn't be doing anyway. The other advantage is the HUGE pro of being able to rotate tires through all four corners of the car. Do you want to look good or go fast? There are two very different approaches and you need to give up the first in order to maximize the last. Again, the is my opinion. And comes from several years of making my Cobra do stuff it didn't want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrytick Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 Thanks for the feedback.... Don't worry, I won't hold the Z06 against you I have more respect for Corvette's than most Mustang fanatics, I suspect. First of all -- for track driving, going fast is always more important than looking good. Anyone who thinks otherwise probably isn't really serious about learning how to drive on a race track. I'll take ugly and fast over pretty and slow any time.... Your points about the car pushing are valid, but I've got a pretty heavily modified GT with a LOT of suspension work, and it handles very, very well. That's not my inexperienced opinion, but rather the feedback from the instructors I've driven with. I think the flaw in my approach here is that I'm trying to put track rubber on some wheels that were designed to, well.... just look good. These 18x9/18x10 wheels are GT500 knock-offs from American Muscle, with some crappy (at least as track tires) NT555s on them. Originally, I intended these to be used for the street. However, sitting in my garage, waiting for me to get good enough to justify using them, are a nice set of Enkey PF01s with NT01 R compounds on them (EVERY instructor said wait, and learn first -- I'm trying!! ). In the interim, I've been driving the GT500/NT555s. When I consider your point about being able to rotate the tires freely, now I think it makes sense to reuse the PF01s and put the right size NT05s on them. I have a *different* set of street wheels (some gorgeous 19" Roh Stradas, for which the race rubber's too much $$), and now I think I'll just reuse the PF01s and sell the GT500 clones along with the used NT555s. I hated those tires when I drove them on Lime Rock Park, but man did I learn how to slide around.... (why I have TWO sets of street wheels/tires is another story, and further evidence that I bought some things before doing my homework). This makes a lot more sense, the more I think about it. The PF01s are very light weight (19.5 lbs), compared to the GT500s (25+), and if I can rotate them, I'll end up getting a lot more life out of whatever I end up putting on them. The only advantage to keeping NT05s on one set of wheels, and NT01s on another, is if I planned on using both, and I don't. I want to learn on the NT05s, and then "graduate" to NT01s, and when I do that, I don't plan to go backwards. In that case, I can get the NT05 in the same size as the NT01s I currently have on the Enkei's, which makes this question largely moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 03/04 OEM Cobra wheels are also a great bang for the buck. I used to buy used ones for $75 each when the show-n-go crowd curbed them or wanted something huge to look good in the parking lot. What suspension modifications are done to your car? What weight reduction modifications are done to your car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrytick Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 I have Steeda Competition anti-roll bars, pan hard, control arms and springs, and Tobiko D-Spec shocks. I also have front and rear strut tower braces. That's just what I've done to the suspension. Now, I freely admit that I probably way over-invested in making the car fast, and should have spent that money on more track time. Instead, I'm doing both I haven't done much to reduce the weight of the car, other than the rear seat delete, but that was primarily because you couldn't get into it anyway after I had the harness bar installed (which in hindsight I regret -- I should have just gone with a full roll bar). I've got Corbeau seats with 5 point harnesses. This car is dual purpose right now -- it's the weekend cruiser and my first track car, so it's a little schizophrenic. Then again, I got addicted to this far more than I expected. It's like crack, but a lot better for you.... I'm sure some spouses might disagree with that last statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 9.5" wide rims, SN95 offset (+35mm), 275mm rubber. I favor 18", since you can fit a decent brake package under them, but 17" will work just as well. Also, a +1 on waiting on the R-compound tires until you can make street rubber sing all the way through every corner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrytick Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 In the end, I decided to go with the 18x9 Enkei PF01s I have with 275/40 Nitto NT05s all around. This will give me a treadware 200 tire to work with, on wheels I can freely rotate. Those wheels currently have my NT01s on them, and those tires I could sell, but I'll probably just put them in storage until next year or the year after. The staggered GT500 knock off wheels I have (18x9 up front, 18x10 in the back) I will probably try to sell at a loss, unless I can think of a reason to keep them. I already have a separate set of street wheels/tires, so these just turned out to be a purchase I didn't really need. Not the first, probably not the last. I like the guideline of being able to make the street tires sing through every corner before you upgrade to R-comps. At this point, I expect to spend most if not all of next year on the NT05s. Thanks for all the feedback on this --it really helps the decision making process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Sell the NT01s if they will be sitting for over a year. That way you buy fresh ones when you are ready for your first foray into beginner R compounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Sell the NT01s if they will be sitting for over a year. That way you buy fresh ones when you are ready for your first foray into beginner R compounds. even if stored in bags in a constant temp enviornment they go "bad" that quick? Even Hoosiers aren't that finnicky... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrytick Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 That's what I was wondering, too -- the NT01s I have only have 3 track days on them, so while I could probably sell them, it doesn't seem worth the trouble if they will "keep" well. These tires have easily 80-85% of their life left, and I probably can only sell then for 50-60% of the cost. That suggests to me that storage is the right way to go. I have a rented storage room that's in a climate-controlled building, so I do have a good long-term storage location. I had planned on putting them in some of Tire Rack's tire bags, and stacking them in the corner of the room and forgetting about them. I plan to drive all of 2013 on the NT05s, and will probably not start using the NT01s until the 2014 season. That means they'll be in storage for about 18 months. Does anyone have experience storing R-comps like this long term? And how would tell if they have gone "bad" anyway? Signs of dry rot? Losing hardness as measured with a durometer? How would you tell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 What is the date code on them? How old are they now plus the 18 months? I have seen too many old Hoosiers explode at speed lately to trust older R comps anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrytick Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 These were brand new when I bought them in May 2012, so in theory, if I want to use them in the 2014 HPDE season, they will be about 22-24 months old when I get them remounted. I am keeping them on the assumption that I can NOT get my $$'s worth by selling them now. But, if they deteriorate in storage, I won't be getting my $$'s worth in 2014, either, in which case selling them now makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I'd run them but I'm a little more agressive about what an "acceptable" tire is these days than most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrytick Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 Here's the results of some quick searches on this subject.... Tire Rack has a couple of documents that discuss how to store tires: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=37¤tpage=17 http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=221 But they don't discuss the DURATION of the storage period. Most likely, they are assuming storage over a single off-season (storing summer tires for the winter, or vice-versa). I did find this tidbit which talks about the lifetime of tires being on the order of several years: http://www.hummerknowledgebase.com/tire/store.html Nitto has this document, but it really only warns about the risk of cracking at low temperatures: http://www.nittotire.com/Content/pdf/Proper%20Use,%20Handling%20and%20Storage%20of%20Certain%20Tires%20in%20Colder%20Climates.pdf I found a lot of other related links, but nothing contradicted the well-written recommendations on the Tire Rack articles. I think the keys to long term storage are: (a) Air-tight plastic bags (b) No temperature extremes © No sunlight So, assuming these tires were actually relatively new when I bought them, and hadn't been sitting on OnlineTires.com's warehouses for a few years, I think they will be fine after another year in storage, assuming I follow the Tire Rack guidelines. Sounds like a bit of work, but worth the effort. Here's what I'm going to do... Photograph all 4 tires and measure the hardness (I've got a durometer) before putting them in storage, and then repeat this when I take them out 18 months later, to get them remounted. It will at least be possible to compare the appearance before and after, as well as the hardness, and then make a somewhat scientific judgment as to how well the tires survived storage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Purchasing them new does not equate to when they were produced. What is the date code? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 yep, look up the date code. Since they are DOT approved they'll have one on the sidewall somewhere - should be 4 digits that correspond to week and month (ie 3012 is 30th week of 2012) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phat ralph Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Hell, just bought a set of NT-01's and they have the same date code as the ones I bought last year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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