Fire Suppression Systems

[Big Dog]

All,

 

I just found out that my Spa fire system (AFFF) did not have enough pressure to push foam out of the nozzles and onto the engine. All it did was dribble out of them and run down the firewall. This system was internally charged, it was not one with the exterior CO2 cartridge and was useless.

 

I am looking for ideas of better systems that will actually work when/if needed and am turning to here for assistance. I race a Porsche 944-Spec and fuel rails can and do break on them.

 

I have had suggestions of a gas system such as Halon 1211 or the more environmentally friendly DuPont FE-36. My longstanding concern with these gas systems (and I have never used one because of this concern) was if the air flow through the engine compartment while the car was still moving quickly (ie before it stopped) would blow the gas out and allow the fire to continue. Is this a real concern?

 

I have also been told that the external CO2 systems provide more pressure and better dispersal of the AFFF foam but does anyone really know for sure? I do not want to have another system that does not work when it is needed as the result might not be as good as the last one was.

 

I have also been told that the AFFF liquid can "settle out" over time and somehow get layered in the tank and not work as well. It would seem to me that bouncing around inside a race car would keep it stirred up pretty well but I just do not "know" and do not want to take another chance at a solution.

 

Again, someone told me of an alternative to AFFF foam that supposedly does not "settle out" but I do not know what it is, if it in fact exists.

 

What are the pro teams using in their race cars? The bottom line, here, is I want a system that will WORK when needed.

 

Thanks for all who can help with this topic.

 

Jim

[whis9]

In for suggestions also, thanks

[DanSTi]

A lot of pro teams actually use the SPA AFFF system. I have the electric version in my car, although I have thankfully never had to use it. I'm guessing that if you're not getting any pressure from the nozzles, there is either a blockage in the system or it needs recharging.

[Big Dog]

I only installed 5 nozzles, rather than the 6 they supply for my particular system. The gauge "showed" I had full pressure. I had blown out the lines about a year and a half ago and the system was recharged by a service center about two years or so ago so I have no idea what may have happened. The two nozzles for the engine were the closest to the bottle but were both fed from a T. The other three were all fed off of the same T.

 

I got "some" pressure and "some" foam from the system but not nearly as much as I would have expected and certainly not with the pressure that it needed to do anything for the engine. I have not removed the bottle from the car yet so do not know if there is more liquid in the bottle that did not get pushed out. I will check that.

 

Jim

[TurboShortBus]

You should inspect the entire system, especially if the gauge said that the bottle pressure was fine. Did the pin fully puncture the bottle neck when it was activated? If you are using aluminum lines, did you throw something into the car that could have crushed one of them? Or, if plastic lines, is there a kink somewhere? If there's a problem with one of the lines or the puncturing mechanism, then it won't matter if you use AFFF, a Halon derivative, or Dr. Pepper; it's not going to come out like it should.

 

Mark

[Big Dog]

Everyone. Here is an update on what I have learned, to date. Following is a copy of the response I received from SPA and my comments on their suggestions. My intent here is to share information that may be new/important to others as it was to me. Please note that SPA did NOT look at my system or my bottle so they are making suggestions based on my e-mail to them. They did respond quickly to my inquiry.

 

Jim;

 

Sorry to hear you had an issue with one of our systems. There could be a couple

reasons as to why the system didn't discharge properly.

 

1, If the tubing is not pushed in properly to the nozzles and any corresponding

tee's or bulkhead fittings, it can cause the fluid to dribble out or leak at one

of the connections. Because, if everything isn't pushed tight properly, this

can allow the nitrogen to escape quicker than it can push the fluid through the

system and ultimately out through the nozzles.

 

[Again, SPA did not inspect my system or bottle, they are responding to my e-mail with ideas. I have not yet inspected the system with this response in mind, yet, as the car is not here at the moment. I will look at it though. My concern here is that there is no process to be able to install the tubing and test it to make sure that it is working correctly. The one thing I did do was to put water through it and then blow it out with air to make sure it was clean when it was installed but that was a year and a half ago.]

 

2, if the bottle is past the 2 year service, and depending on just how long

overdue it is, the extinguishing agent can actually start to become gelatinous

and separate from the water and this could clog the system or prevent it from

discharging properly. It can also calcify if it has seen dramatic changes in

weather conditions, but with you in California, I doubt that is the case!

 

[i do not know exactly when the bottle was serviced. This system was in a car that was totaled in a wreck. The tub was bent so everything was moved to another tub and the system was sent in for service while the new build was going on. It was certainly two years or more ago although less than three years.

 

Issue - I was completely unaware of the two year service suggestion. It was not emphasized in the information that came with the system. I am concerned that no one that I have spoken with mentioned the two year issue or that the fluid can become gelatinous. I have the same system in my original car that has been in for the better part of eight years without service. Rest assured, it is coming out before the next race.]

 

Most likely, situation no.1 is the culprit with your scenario. I would guess,

by your description of the events, that either one or more of the nozzles

weren't clicked on properly or tightly enough, or the fitting for the nozzle

wasn't screwed in enough.

 

When pushing the tubing into fittings, you should feel it get tight and then

feel a secondary click.

 

[Note: My nozzles do not screw in. They push in just like the rest of the fittings. Again, I have not checked any of the system nor have I checked the bottle to see if there is fluid still in it that did not get expelled.]

 

I hope this helps alleviate the concerns you have and you will choose to

continue using our products. We take our role in fire safety very seriously and

would not have a product on the market that was not tested and did not meet the

standards set forth by the industry.

 

I now know much more than ever before about this fire suppression issue and am thankful that my system was triggered by me in a non-fire event.

 

After much more research than I did when I first purchased this system, here is what I have concluded:

1. AFFF systems require regular maintenance of the fluid.

2. Internally charged systems, like the SPA system, are less expensive than the systems with an external CO2 cartridge but require servicing at a service center at a cost of about $200 with shipping. ESS type systems can be serviced by the racer for about $60 but still require the racer to know and do it.

3. Gas (Halon and the new alternative gases) do not require this kind of maintenance service.

4. Gas systems, in the 10# size, are about the same cost as the ESS type systems in the 4L size.

5. Gas systems are used by NASCAR and other top racing groups.

6. All systems require careful installation and regular inspections.

 

Given what I have learned, we are going to replace our systems with 10# gas systems. We are researching the alternative gases and have yet to make a decision on just which one to use. We will be much more careful with how it is installed and will make it a pre-event inspection item on our checklist.

 

I hope others learn from this thread and avoid what, for me, could have been a very different outcome if the fire system had been needed.

 

Big Dog

944-Spec

Red 16 Car

[bob-e]

when I fired my spa system, it did the exact same thing--dribble. I also have less nozzles than the max, bottle was fully charged and was 20 months old. I've lost all confidence in it. I put a manual extinguisher in for now. Not sure what I will do next

[xennex]

I seem to be in the same boat. I have the SPA 3.375 l AFFF system with two nozzles (engine bay & fuel cell), 4 months old at the time of activation. Lines were blown out at the time of replacement.

 

Last race I had a fuel rail fracture and subsequent fuel fed engine bay fire. I activated the system but the overall effect was disappointing - foam dribbled out over a minute or so rather than spraying out. Luckily I pulled off the track when I smelt fuel, before the fire started, and also stopped right in front of a rescue crew / fire truck, so the overall damage was very minor. The fire system appears to make little difference when I pulled it.

 

I've recharged the system but are putting in a hand held too as I don't have any confidence in the SPA AFFF.