pchio Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 I couldnt find the information I need about building the Spec Z Cage, Could someone point me to a right direction? I might missed it somewhere. 1) Are Gussets allows in between A-pillar/B-pillar and roll cage? 2) Is the crash bar inside the dash removable and be replaced with the roll cage? Thanks in advance! -Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastNotFurious Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Cage rules are in the CCR. Mke sure to use the heavier .120 wall tubing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pchio Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 Jeremy replied. And Answers are No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esr Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 If he has an 03-04 couldn't he go with 1 3/4 0.95? Cage rules are in the CCR. Mke sure to use the heavier .120 wall tubing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastNotFurious Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Since you can be VERY close to the weight limit for .095 and based on some other cars and tech situations, best to go with .120 IMHO Since the Spec Z rules state min weight is 3175 (for an '03) at race end (incl fuel resrve & driver) and the CCR states .120 is to be used for cars in the 3001lb to 4000 lb range, you're right on the edge assuming you can get to minimum weight. Based on the Spec Z rules restrictions it is very hard to get to min weight AND really conform to the rules (no unnecessary interior/parts removal and only spec parts) and have all your safety equipment in. I'm always interested to see anyone who has managed it and how they got there. You really don't want to find yourself at inspection having built your cage with .095 and find it weighs, for example, 3050 lbs dry... and fail tech. Not worth the risk in my view - but I know most of us hoped we could get the cars below 3000 lb but I haven't seen anyone do it AND be in strict adherence to the rules - but I also haven't seen everything Just my view. Its only a concern since the defined min weight is so close to the cage tubing limit weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcazin Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Since you can be VERY close to the weight limit for .095 and based on some other cars and tech situations, best to go with .120 IMHO Since the Spec Z rules state min weight is 3175 (for an '03) at race end (incl fuel resrve & driver) and the CCR states .120 is to be used for cars in the 3001lb to 4000 lb range, you're right on the edge assuming you can get to minimum weight. Based on the Spec Z rules restrictions it is very hard to get to min weight AND really conform to the rules (no unnecessary interior/parts removal and only spec parts) and have all your safety equipment in. I'm always interested to see anyone who has managed it and how they got there. You really don't want to find yourself at inspection having built your cage with .095 and find it weighs, for example, 3050 lbs dry... and fail tech. Not worth the risk in my view - but I know most of us hoped we could get the cars below 3000 lb but I haven't seen anyone do it AND be in strict adherence to the rules - but I also haven't seen everything Just my view. Its only a concern since the defined min weight is so close to the cage tubing limit weight. I could not agree more with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esr Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Yes, but by doing so will you be overweight making your already slower car even slower. Looks like there is a catch there. Or we race the min weight for all cars by 150lbs and make 1 mandatory cage, then we eliminate all this guessing. Since you can be VERY close to the weight limit for .095 and based on some other cars and tech situations, best to go with .120 IMHO Since the Spec Z rules state min weight is 3175 (for an '03) at race end (incl fuel resrve & driver) and the CCR states .120 is to be used for cars in the 3001lb to 4000 lb range, you're right on the edge assuming you can get to minimum weight. Based on the Spec Z rules restrictions it is very hard to get to min weight AND really conform to the rules (no unnecessary interior/parts removal and only spec parts) and have all your safety equipment in. I'm always interested to see anyone who has managed it and how they got there. You really don't want to find yourself at inspection having built your cage with .095 and find it weighs, for example, 3050 lbs dry... and fail tech. Not worth the risk in my view - but I know most of us hoped we could get the cars below 3000 lb but I haven't seen anyone do it AND be in strict adherence to the rules - but I also haven't seen everything Just my view. Its only a concern since the defined min weight is so close to the cage tubing limit weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian L. Posted August 22, 2013 Members Share Posted August 22, 2013 My cars are built the letter of the law, and they are 2900 lbs dry. Easily within the rules for .095. Why would you add all that extra weight to your car by going .120? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esr Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Ok, so 3175 at the end of the race, that is probably with 5 gall fuel, that is 30 lbs plus an Italian or Japanese driver 140lbs that is 170 lbs, now he would probably be wearing cloth ad another 15 lbs. that's a total 185lbs. So that leaves all the rest of us normal size faulks out of contention with an 03-04, unless we can get our cars bellow 3,000lbs. Being bellow 3000 lbs is a given if one is trying to get to minimum weight with an 03-04! My cars are built the letter of the law, and they are 2900 lbs dry. Easily within the rules for .095. Why would you add all that extra weight to your car by going .120? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laze1 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Guys, I suggest you contact Clifton Winkleman the NASA Spec Z National Director on this issue. "Clifton Winkleman" Based on a recent case...the .095 on a DE engine Spec Z FAILED NASA TECH and a log book was not issued!!!!! Thus I STRONGLY recommend that you go with 1.750” x .120” 15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but without fuel and driver. Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll cage is: Up . 2501 - 3000 lbs 1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM 1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM 1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages) *Note- Specifications listed only for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles. 3001 - 4000 lbs 1.750” x .120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM No ERW allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esr Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I don't think is neseasary to contact anyone, all the confusion is due to uninformed people giving their opinion bases on what they heard happend to a friend of a friend the other day. I am currently renting one car that is legal with small cage and Brian just build 2 of them. That's enough for me that rules are very clear, as well as the need for a small cage on the 03-04. Guys, I suggest you contact Clifton Winkleman the NASA Spec Z National Director on this issue. "Clifton Winkleman" Based on a recent case...the .095 on a DE engine Spec Z FAILED NASA TECH and a log book was not issued!!!!! Thus I STRONGLY recommend that you go with 1.750” x .120” 15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but without fuel and driver. Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll cage is: Up . 2501 - 3000 lbs 1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM 1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM 1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages) *Note- Specifications listed only for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles. 3001 - 4000 lbs 1.750” x .120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM No ERW allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcazin Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian L. Posted August 22, 2013 Members Share Posted August 22, 2013 If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated. Some things maybe everyone doesn't do for a club car. - I used .095 cage materiel, if you used .120 and wonder why your car is not light enough, consider the weight of the cage, I also weighed every piece of the cage as I added it to make sure I would be good. - Dry ice removal of ALL the sound deadening on the floor of the car, this stuff adds up to at least 10 lbs. - I removed my heater core and all associated hardware, yes I won't have a defroster but a properly sealed firewall and some rain-x anti fog takes care of that for the most part, also I live in CA - Exhaust! Exhaust weight is huge! I built a custom single exit 3" with Borla mufflers. Its the little things that add up when building a racecar. If one thing weighs 2.5 lbs so you say "no big deal", if there are 10 of those little things thats 25 lbs! Yes I checked my math on that . My second car will be for sale when it is done for a shameless plug on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esr Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 also would be nice to hear the story of the guy that failed tech, but from the guy himself! and what his current status is! If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated. Some things maybe everyone doesn't do for a club car. - I used .095 cage materiel, if you used .120 and wonder why your car is not light enough, consider the weight of the cage, I also weighed every piece of the cage as I added it to make sure I would be good. - Dry ice removal of ALL the sound deadening on the floor of the car, this stuff adds up to at least 10 lbs. - I removed my heater core and all associated hardware, yes I won't have a defroster but a properly sealed firewall and some rain-x anti fog takes care of that for the most part, also I live in CA - Exhaust! Exhaust weight is huge! I built a custom single exit 3" with Borla mufflers. Its the little things that add up when building a racecar. If one thing weighs 2.5 lbs so you say "no big deal", if there are 10 of those little things thats 25 lbs! Yes I checked my math on that . My second car will be for sale when it is done for a shameless plug on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastNotFurious Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Your assumption as to opinions being based on rumor is misinformed.... some of us are very familiar with specific situations - hence our advice. What you do is up to you... no one can force you to accept wisdom. Only trying to help. If you pass inspection, great! If you don't, you'll now have no reason to complain. I don't think is neseasary to contact anyone, all the confusion is due to uninformed people giving their opinion bases on what they heard happend to a friend of a friend the other day.I am currently renting one car that is legal with small cage and Brian just build 2 of them. That's enough for me that rules are very clear, as well as the need for a small cage on the 03-04. Guys, I suggest you contact Clifton Winkleman the NASA Spec Z National Director on this issue. "Clifton Winkleman" Based on a recent case...the .095 on a DE engine Spec Z FAILED NASA TECH and a log book was not issued!!!!! Thus I STRONGLY recommend that you go with 1.750” x .120” 15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but without fuel and driver. Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll cage is: Up . 2501 - 3000 lbs 1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM 1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM 1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages) *Note- Specifications listed only for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles. 3001 - 4000 lbs 1.750” x .120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM No ERW allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esr Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I see your intentions are good. it is very appreciated. Thank you very much Your assumption as to opinions being based on rumor is misinformed.... some of us are very familiar with specific situations - hence our advice. What you do is up to you... no one can force you to accept wisdom. Only trying to help. If you pass inspection, great! If you don't, you'll now have no reason to complain. I don't think is neseasary to contact anyone, all the confusion is due to uninformed people giving their opinion bases on what they heard happend to a friend of a friend the other day.I am currently renting one car that is legal with small cage and Brian just build 2 of them. That's enough for me that rules are very clear, as well as the need for a small cage on the 03-04. Guys, I suggest you contact Clifton Winkleman the NASA Spec Z National Director on this issue. "Clifton Winkleman" Based on a recent case...the .095 on a DE engine Spec Z FAILED NASA TECH and a log book was not issued!!!!! Thus I STRONGLY recommend that you go with 1.750” x .120” 15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but without fuel and driver. Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll cage is: Up . 2501 - 3000 lbs 1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM 1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM 1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages) *Note- Specifications listed only for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles. 3001 - 4000 lbs 1.750” x .120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM No ERW allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotts300 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated. Send me your email, I'll send you my 2012 and 2013 tech inspection where all was weighed and measured. Do as Brian said, and continue to remove things. I also have a super lightweight single exhaust. Stillen? Bassani? All pigs. Also, what wheels did you have on at the time? My cars are built the letter of the law, and they are 2900 lbs dry. Easily within the rules for .095. Why would you add all that extra weight to your car by going .120? THIS If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated. Some things maybe everyone doesn't do for a club car. - I used .095 cage materiel, if you used .120 and wonder why your car is not light enough, consider the weight of the cage, I also weighed every piece of the cage as I added it to make sure I would be good. - Dry ice removal of ALL the sound deadening on the floor of the car, this stuff adds up to at least 10 lbs. - I removed my heater core and all associated hardware, yes I won't have a defroster but a properly sealed firewall and some rain-x anti fog takes care of that for the most part, also I live in CA - Exhaust! Exhaust weight is huge! I built a custom single exit 3" with Borla mufflers. Its the little things that add up when building a racecar. If one thing weighs 2.5 lbs so you say "no big deal", if there are 10 of those little things thats 25 lbs! Yes I checked my math on that . My second car will be for sale when it is done for a shameless plug on this thread. Couldn't agree more. Since you can be VERY close to the weight limit for .095 and based on some other cars and tech situations, best to go with .120 IMHO Since the Spec Z rules state min weight is 3175 (for an '03) at race end (incl fuel resrve & driver) and the CCR states .120 is to be used for cars in the 3001lb to 4000 lb range, you're right on the edge assuming you can get to minimum weight. Based on the Spec Z rules restrictions it is very hard to get to min weight AND really conform to the rules (no unnecessary interior/parts removal and only spec parts) and have all your safety equipment in. I'm always interested to see anyone who has managed it and how they got there. You really don't want to find yourself at inspection having built your cage with .095 and find it weighs, for example, 3050 lbs dry... and fail tech. Not worth the risk in my view - but I know most of us hoped we could get the cars below 3000 lb but I haven't seen anyone do it AND be in strict adherence to the rules - but I also haven't seen everything Just my view. Its only a concern since the defined min weight is so close to the cage tubing limit weight. A touch heavier than Brian's cars, my car was 2940 on the scales - ready-to-race with harness, race seat, fire extinguisher, nets, 1/4 tank gas, etc., without driver - after the .095" cage was installed. As Brian said, the .095 cage itself is lighter than the .120 cage. Take 2940, add 170# driver and a tank of gas, and we are over 3200# to meet the (raised) spec weight. Assuming they don't continue the stupidity and raise the spec weight again, this is an acceptable solution. My car was tech'd for the class in 2012 and 2013. The sad thing is that we end up building a car around the driver. Meaning, if we could gut the car down to 2800#, it would be illegal for a 170# driver yet legal for a 270# driver. Just seems silly to me. Lastly, does the SCCA tech loophole still exist? Meaning, get the annual done by SCCA (.095 cage is allowed), then bring SCCA annual tech to NASA for annual NASA tech? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 How many feet of tubing is necessary to build a legal cage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japelle Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 How many feet of tubing is necessary to build a legal cage? I just built a cage for our 07' Nismo and we used 66' of 1 3/4 X .120 wall. You can get away with 50-60 but we intentionally overbuilt our cage since the HR's get a huge weight penalty. Here is the link to the build. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.126551897531111.1073741835.111486809037620&type=1&l=d6d2616f01 Thanks, Jay Team Pelle Motorsports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 depends on how many and what kind of mistakes you make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I should re phrase the question How many feet of tubing will be enough for a legal cage - not how many feet of tubing did you go through In any case, I calculate about 30lbs difference between .095 and .120. Are any of the support bracing exempt from the thickness rule? I remember in SCCA we were only required the main hoop and I dont remember what else to follow the thickness requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 from NASA CCRs: 15.6.17 Additional Reinforcement Any number of additional reinforcing bars are permitted within the structure of the cage provided that they are installed strictly for safety and do not violate CCR Section #15.6.2 Intent. This rule does not permit reinforcements in classes with spec cages. All required bars must be made of the same material and meet with at least the minimum specifications for size and thickness. Additional tubing may be of any size / dimension, however it should not create an unsafe situation. emphasis added Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotts300 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 I should re phrase the question How many feet of tubing will be enough for a legal cage - not how many feet of tubing did you go through In any case, I calculate about 30lbs difference between .095 and .120. Are any of the support bracing exempt from the thickness rule? I remember in SCCA we were only required the main hoop and I dont remember what else to follow the thickness requirement. I think you only reach 30# of delta between the 1.75 x .120 and the 1.75 x .095 when you have about 74' of tubing. The cage CAN be done legally in about 50', so the delta at that length is 21#. Most cages are about 60', and that carries a 24# weight delta. Remember that 1.50 x .120" is allowed as well (per SCCA --> NASA), which is close to the wt/lf of the 1.75 x .095, but is about 5% heavier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinkalizer Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Is a rear strut brace done from the tubing allowed or no? I have seen some do it, some don't. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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