Jeremymoen Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I have a question regarding the surge tank in my fuel system. Does it need to be FIA rated or not? While the pumps are on, the surge tank remains full. It is vented via the hose that goes to the fuel cell (silver hose from little tank to big tank), and the cell is vented in the traditional manner with tip over valve etc. (that hose is not installed yet though in the pics). The small tank is only about 5 x 5 x 6 or so. Here's a couple pics of what I'm talking about. I haven't been able to get a good answer yet, so hoping someone at NASA can help me out on this. Thanks for any input out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 It seems to me that an external surge tank is still...a tank. It is outside the protective envelope that is created by the main fuel cell. A 5x5x6 tank (150 ci) still holds nearly 2/3 of a gallon of fuel (0.65 gallon, actually). As an experiment, toss that on an open fire and watch it go boomski. Why not use a proper internal surge tank that is installed inside the fuel cell bladder? http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atlinc.com%2Fdownload.php%3Ffile%3Dpdfs%2FRacing%2F20_ATLFuelScavenging.pdf&ei=pi8fUuS-JKi2sATjpYCwDw&usg=AFQjCNEqUb8XzC2G0gIvs8DxIeQU1N7Inw&sig2=cEbyY4wT4IxljtIFijksRA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.b2I&cad=rja The argument could be made that a large inline fuel filter also holds a decent volume of fuel, and has no bladder to contain fuel if it is ruptured, and is both common and legal, so a non-FIA external surge tank should be allowed as well. Of course, how much you push that argument is directly proportional to how much you feel like cutting corners when it comes to your own safety. While you're there, you could also mount that inline filter within the fuel cell, leaving only the volume of fuel contained within the hoses outside of the cell. A couple of years ago, a driver I know who was building a ST car asked the same question via e-mail and was denied by NASA management. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 My understanding from John Lindsey is that any surge tank needs to be a fully approved fuel cell with bladder, per the CCR's. So, the above does not seem to be legal per the CCR. from post http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=37907&p=282271&hilit=surge+tank#p282271 Based on this advice I removed mine which was set up almost identical to yours. I have the internal FuelSafe collector only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremymoen Posted August 29, 2013 Author Share Posted August 29, 2013 Thanks guys for the replies. What you're saying makes sense. I better get going on getting it fixed, one way or another. When you run the ATL collector in the cell, what kind of fuel pump / plumbing arrangement did you use? Just a single pump pulling from the collector? Seems like that may be fine, shouldn't encounter any air bubbles. My car is carb'd not injected, so a slight bubble in the line doesn't hurt me, I just can't loose fuel pressure for too long. When installing the the collector into the cell, I assume you need to cut away the foam in that area to make room - and without hurting the cell bladder itself. Is there a slam dunk way to do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 ^^^It's probably best to call the ATL tech line. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 FWIW, I have an external pump and an internal pump in the collector connected in series and running off the same cut-off switch. The return line dumps back into the collector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremymoen Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 That's what I ended up doing, just feeding the main pump with the secondary "lift" pump. Seems to work okay in the driveway. We'll see. . . . Also used the old surge tank as a catch can in the vent line/ system, so I"ll be sure not to leave fuel on the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Based on discussions with the National Office we have been enforcing the FIA requirement for any fuel tank of any size. As the CCR currently reads there is no exceptions listed. There have been some discussions on perhaps a maximum volume that would not need to be rated but nothing has hit the rule book as of yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremymoen Posted September 10, 2013 Author Share Posted September 10, 2013 Thanks for the update. Hopefully this will help someone down else building a track car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunter Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 This is the tank I have in my ATL cell. Just take the fuel fill cover off the top of the cell, take all the foam out (might be a good time to replace it if needed - some of the older stuff wont' handle the methanol in fuel if your running pump gas), position the surge tank where you want it and put the foam back in. Easy-peasy. I run a carb setup in my AI car, and this year I swapped to a mechanical fuel pump. One less electrical apparatus to go bad (had one quit on me last summer in a race and it cost me two pistons). Then no need to shut offs, etc. Engine not running = no fuel pumping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crashgnx Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 fuel safe has a new cheaper collector box for inside the cell, ST110 is the part number. I'll be using one when I put my fuel cell in my car this month hopefully. I'll drop a walbro 255lph pump inside it and position it in the rear center of the cell as recommended and plumb the return line back into the collector box. I'll try to remember to post back how it works or not. On a seperate note has anyone found or seen anywhere in the CCR requirements on how the cell has to be mounted? IE What size tube or how many mounting points, inside a cage? I know it has to be behind a firewall from the passenger compartment and cant be too close to the ground but thats all I can find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremymoen Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 I believe I ended up with that ST110 collector. Price wasn't too bad. Easy to install. Now just using a single external pump, and I've had absolutely no issues with fuel pressure, and I've run the tank pretty low. So I'm happy with it. It also minimized the amount of plumbing back there. The external surge tank had quite a few hoses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crashgnx Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I did the same thing in the end, a internal fuel pump doesnt fit very well inside that ST110. By the time you get it secured in there with a pre-filter you run into issues with the doors not opening enough in my opinion. It could be done but there is a chance it will run into issues. One day I may revisit this and build an aluminum tank, same idea, just big enough to put a pump in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremymoen Posted June 26, 2014 Author Share Posted June 26, 2014 I would use caution when considering building an aluminum tank to go inside the cell. You don't want it to be able to tear the cell bladder. That's why I didn't build one, and went with the "approved" option which was the ST110. External pumps don't cause me too much concern so I'll stay with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crashgnx Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 My bladder is the thick rigid hard plastic/rubber type (Fuelsafe Enduro series) and its packed in there with foam holding it from ever trying to move so i'm not really worried about the aluminum wearing a hole in it (i'll polish the outside anyway). By the time it did, the bladder would be long past expired. Yeah I wouldn't try it on the thin impregnated fabric type, good call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crashgnx Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Something else worth mentioning, I saw on ACL's site they have FIA FT3 approved surge tank/swirl pots PN ST540 for those that have to run that kind of setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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