Weight reduction

[FrankEC]

Hey everyone, I think I'm going to make the leap into TT next season and have a question regarding the prep of my e36 M3. I just have a question regarding the weight reduction. I see point assesment for how much over your competition weight is over the base weight. I see the base weight listed for my car in the rules, but my question is do I add MY weight to the vehicle base weight for the final base weight- or do I basically get to reduce the weight of myself from my car for free? For example, the listed base weight for my car is 3175lbs, so add in my weight of, say, 200lbs; then we're talking I have a total base weight of 3375lbs. Does this mean I can remove 200lbs from the vehicle before I start incurring points for weight reduction?

 

Couldn't quite understand from the rules.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks

Frank

[kbrew8991]

Car will always be measured as it competes and then comes off track - so any extra fuel you happen to have in the tank, what you ate for breakfast/lunch, did you get a haircut recently, whatever marbles you can pick up, etc all counts. We'll pull you out of line as you come off track and put you accross the scales and compare that number to your minimum that's claimed on your class form. If you're over, you're good! You'll stay in the car and probably want to keep extra stuff like your helmet and whatever else inside the car to help your cause as you go across the scales

 

IOW, the car is weighed with driver, gear, etc. That weight must be at or above the minimum claimed on your classing form. Take out as much weight as you wish, run whatever ballast you want up to the maximum amt allowed, just make sure you can meet or exceed that minimum weight with driver & such after any session as you never know when you may be checked.

[FrankEC]

Awesome thanks for the info! So I'm trying to count up the points I have invested in the car, and I'm wondering if I need to add points for weight reduction. I have a fixed back seat in the car, plus most of the interior in the rear has been removed. I have a roll bar to make up for some of it- but the car is definitley lighter than stock. I understand what minimum competition weight is (with me, my helmet, and all that other good stuff) but for "base weight" am I putting 3175lbs as it states in the rules for the e36 M3? As I understand I am charged points for how much lighter the minimum competition weight is than my base weight, and it the base weight that I am having a hard time understanding.

 

Thanks for the help!

 

Frank

[kbrew8991]

Yes, looks like the E36 M3 is listed at 3,175 currently, so that's the base weight. You'll need to weigh your car in as similar to end-of-session trim as you can to figure out if it's under and if so by how much. Bring a drill, bolts and some weights with holes in them for ballast, or run more fuel, or some combination if you decide to take zero weight points but just make sure you bring enough to keep that car over 3,175 if you wish to take zero weight points. Wash rinse repeat as you start spending points on weight like in the table below.

 

E36 M3 weight table:

Min weight claimed - points it costs to run there

3175 or more - 0 points

3169 - 1pt

3154 - 2pts

3139 - 3pts

3124 - 4pts

3109 - 5pts

3094 - 6pts

etc.

 

(note - since the wording is greater than, not greater than or equal to, you're seeing the points kick in one pound lower ie 20lbs below a car's listing is +1, 21lbs below a car's listing is +2 for example)

 

Suggestion - if you have some leftover points to spend before bumping up a class, minuswhale take them to bring your min weight down. Even if it's not an acheviable weight you know you'll be at or above it and not risk a DQ over weight.

[FrankEC]

Ok great I just wanted to make sure that I was understanding the rules correctly. Because if the base weight of the car is 3175lbs and a 200lb driver; without mods my competition weight would be 3375lbs. So, theoretically, I could shed 200lbs from the car (lightweight body panels, removed interior pieces) to hit the 3175lb mark, and not incur any additional points. I just wanted to make sure I was reading this right.

 

Thanks so much for all your help Ken, it is MUCH appreciated! I just wanted to make sure I'm doing this right haha!

 

Take care

Frank

[alwaysinboost]

shouldn't be too hard to get to the 3175 base weight without going to extremes. i actually had to add ballast to get back up to 3175 after removing just the spare tire, jack and doing seats, and roll bar (stock front seats are HEAVY). I still have all the sound/insulation, radio, speakers and all that good stuff.

 

also, IMO, weight reduction points aren't worth it. better to spend points on tires than losing weight.

[FrankEC]

Yeah I hear ya, definitely don't want to be spending any points there. It's just that I'm like one point away from TTC so I want to make sure I'm not going to be bumped over for something like this so I just wanted a clear understanding of the rules.

 

With the 7 penalty points for the M3 there's really not much room for some real tires- what seems to be the basic strategy here? I'm using the Dunlop ZII's seems to be the most aggressive tire to get without being bumped up, and I've had nothing but great experiences with them.

[rzoops]

ZII's will be great on track. The other popular option is to run a skinnier tire to earn points back, and then a more aggressive compound. A 225 in D would get you 4 points back..

[kbrew8991]

Just because a car is listed at 3175 doesn't mean that's exactly what each of them weigh stock. Options and parts and whatnot can skew that in a hurry, and so can fine tuning of the car's classing (ie push the base weight up or down a little versus a jump in asterix).

 

I feel your pain on fielding a one-asterix car trying to stay in it's base class. My points sheet is pretty much tires (+10mm width, +10 compound) and that's it.

[getfast]

Timely thread as I am about to do this to my "daily beater" E36 M3 sedan which weighs something like 3450 with driver as it sits. I'm going to replace the drivers seat with a Sparco bucket, remove carpet and headliner, add rollbar/harness, and see where I stand. I'm guessing there will be plenty of room to then pull out the stereo and more of the interior and the trunk carpet and various other bits, but not sure yet.

 

I will be running 235 Star Specs until the rest of my stockpile is gone, then switching to 235 ZII's. I thought about Rivals (and have loved their grip level via borrowed cars) but they only come in 245 and I can't afford the points. They also seem to have fragile sidewalls and I'm often a curb jumper

 

Worth noting for these cars specifically, if your car has a factory rear wing you'll need to take points for it since not every E36 M3 came with one.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Worth noting for these cars specifically, if your car has a factory rear wing you'll need to take points for it since not every E36 M3 came with one.

Trunk swap > taking garbage points

[kbrew8991]

3 mins with a ratchet and some racer tape > buying a new or used wingless trunk

[getfast]

Yep, I'm certain the factory rear wing on these cars isn't worth its points. But the possible issue for me is that the third brake light is in the wing vs. in the rear window for the non-wing cars. Mine is going to stay street legal for now, and although I haven't looked up the law yet, I wouldn't be surprised if having only two brake lights on a car that came with three from the factory was a problem (i.e. will I fail state inspection or get tickets?) Although I could take off my X-brace to get points back if necessary and keep the wing but still stay in D. Or rig up another third brake light with some cheap trailer parts from Harbor Freight, of course

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Yep, I'm certain the factory rear wing on these cars isn't worth its points. But the possible issue for me is that the third brake light is in the wing vs. in the rear window for the non-wing cars. Mine is going to stay street legal for now, and although I haven't looked up the law yet, I wouldn't be surprised if having only two brake lights on a car that came with three from the factory was a problem (i.e. will I fail state inspection or get tickets?) Although I could take off my X-brace to get points back if necessary and keep the wing but still stay in D. Or rig up another third brake light with some cheap trailer parts from Harbor Freight, of course

 

My race car Integra is without any 3rd brake lamp. Original hatch/glass had it. Hatch that I put on it was from a RS (no spoiler) and glass was from a GSR (no 3rd brake lamp provisions). I just love the look of wingless and lightless.

 

Long story short: I've been pulled over twice in the race car: Once the cop just wanted to talk to me about my car and if I actually race or if I'm some idiot street racer (cool guy). The other one pulled me over on I-10 going to California because my license plate bulbs were inop (couldn't see plate). Both did a walk-around on my car. Neither pointed that out.

 

ALSO: My old daily driver was a 1993 Integra RS. The 3rd brake lamp housing was all busted up and what-not. I just removed it and made sure I always had 100% functioning rear brake lights (2 in each taillight; 4 total brake lights light up). I had to go through a Level 3 Inspection to put it back on the road when it was totaled. I did not fail the inspection.

 

This may only apply to the wild wild west...(AZ)

Edited September 5, 2013 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

Virginia is communist as hell when it comes to cars

[modernbeat]

Texas only requires two brakes lights, but if the third light is present, it must work.

[alwaysinboost]

Yeah I hear ya, definitely don't want to be spending any points there. It's just that I'm like one point away from TTC so I want to make sure I'm not going to be bumped over for something like this so I just wanted a clear understanding of the rules.

 

With the 7 penalty points for the M3 there's really not much room for some real tires- what seems to be the basic strategy here? I'm using the Dunlop ZII's seems to be the most aggressive tire to get without being bumped up, and I've had nothing but great experiences with them.

 

Z2's are a great tire. I run them in TTD here in the NE with decent results.

 

IMO the hot setup for these cars is as follows:

+7 base

+2 springs

+3 struts

+10 R6

-4 225 tires

that gives you 18 points total and you have 1 point to spare.

 

I went a different direction by adding +3 for structural reinforcements because I didn't want to gamble with my car, but if I had it to do over again that is what I would do to stay in TTD.

[FrankEC]

Yup my rear wing is looooooooooooooooooooong gone haha

 

Z2's are a great tire. I run them in TTD here in the NE with decent results.

 

IMO the hot setup for these cars is as follows:

+7 base

+2 springs

+3 struts

+10 R6

-4 225 tires

that gives you 18 points total and you have 1 point to spare.

 

I went a different direction by adding +3 for structural reinforcements because I didn't want to gamble with my car, but if I had it to do over again that is what I would do to stay in TTD.

 

Yeah this appears to be the hot setup for these cars to stay in TTD, gonna give it a try with what I got first (235 ZII's) and see how I do! I figure when I do real tires I'd want to do the chasis reenforcements so by that time I'll probably just accept the bump. Sure wish I didn't have that stupid 2 point muffler haha!

[TurboShortBus]

I figure when I do real tires I'd want to do the chasis reenforcements so by that time I'll probably just accept the bump.

There is a very good chance that these modifications will not be worth the points, so you might want to reconsider them. Those +3 per F4 (and +2 if you attach the cage per H2) will serve you better if spent on tire compound.

 

Tire compound trumps all other modifications almost every time. Read through the other various new-guy threads in this forum, as much of this is repetitive information.

 

Mark

[FrankEC]

I figure when I do real tires I'd want to do the chasis reenforcements so by that time I'll probably just accept the bump.

There is a very good chance that these modifications will not be worth the points, so you might want to reconsider them. Those +3 per F4 (and +2 if you attach the cage per H2) will serve you better if spent on tire compound.

 

Tire compound trumps all other modifications almost every time. Read through the other various new-guy threads in this forum, as much of this is repetitive information.

 

Mark

 

The chassis reinforcements are more for a safety/reliability purpose. The e36 has a potential problem with the RTA pockets failing and ought to be reinforced and apparently this costs points because there was no corrective action on BMW's part; there's actually a pretty informative thread on this very issue on this forum. I would spend the points on performance but hey, the car not not having a catastophic failure has to take priority haha

 

But yes I would concur tires trump all mods for sure

[ILIKETODRIVE]

I figure when I do real tires I'd want to do the chasis reenforcements so by that time I'll probably just accept the bump.

There is a very good chance that these modifications will not be worth the points, so you might want to reconsider them. Those +3 per F4 (and +2 if you attach the cage per H2) will serve you better if spent on tire compound.

 

Tire compound trumps all other modifications almost every time. Read through the other various new-guy threads in this forum, as much of this is repetitive information.

 

Mark

 

The chassis reinforcements are more for a safety/reliability purpose. The e36 has a potential problem with the RTA pockets failing and ought to be reinforced and apparently this costs points because there was no corrective action on BMW's part; there's actually a pretty informative thread on this very issue on this forum. I would spend the points on performance but hey, the car not not having a catastophic failure has to take priority haha

This. I remember reading through that thread when I was bored at work one day.

[FrankEC]

Haha it's a good one though!

[R13]

Bumping this for a similar clarification.

 

Secion I. of the rules lists no-point modifications with a section (b.) for weight reduction.

 

I assume that this inclusion means there are no additional points for these modifications as opposed to the weight removed not being counted?

 

In other words while I would not take extra points specifically for a lightweight battery, I would still take points for the ~30lb reduction if it took me below the listed minimum weight correct?

 

Also with the wing question: All models/versions of my car came with a wing....however some models (not US market) came with a different wing (same attachment points) for some model years. I assume those wouldn't be fair game though right?

[TurboShortBus]

Bumping this for a similar clarification.

 

Secion I. of the rules lists no-point modifications with a section (b.) for weight reduction.

 

I assume that this inclusion means there are no additional points for these modifications as opposed to the weight removed not being counted?

 

In other words while I would not take extra points specifically for a lightweight battery, I would still take points for the ~30lb reduction if it took me below the listed minimum weight correct?

Correct. Some of this is likely leftover from the days of points assessments for removing portions of the car's interior (X points for removing door panels, Y points for removing seats, etc.). Back then, the points-for-weight method was the "alternate method." But now, just remove (almost) whatever you want and weigh the car when you're done; pay points accordingly.

 

Also with the wing question: All models/versions of my car came with a wing....however some models (not US market) came with a different wing (same attachment points) for some model years. I assume those wouldn't be fair game though right?

See the bold and underlined sentence in 2013 TT rules section 6.1.1.

 

Mark