Built motor or power adder?

[brooksv3]

For power which is best for HPDE through TT classes, building the engine with heads, cam, etc. or adding sc or turbo?

[getfast]

I've seen many turbo cars go boom in HPDE over the years. Seen many SC'd cars overheat or have other problems as well. So the answer is... whatever is the most reliable and will allow you to get all the track time you paid for.

[kbrew8991]

The power you have now is more than fine, as you'll find out when that 100hp Miata catches you and needs a point-by during your first day of HPDE1

 

worry about modifications only if there is some inherent weakness in the car's OE setup, or when you're deep in DE3 and getting ready to move the car you have over into some form of competition. And that last one, it still may make more sense to snap up an existing race car with alot of that stuff already done...

[t500hps]

Horsepower is not in the top 5 things you need for your car to start running......it might not be in the top 10. Brakes are #1....and #2 (since they are so important!). Next is dealing with cooling issues for the motor and again, those brakes. Tires don't even become a concern until you can run some consistent laps.

 

That Miata comment isn't a joke, those little things are like go-carts and are awesome road course cars!. In one of my early HPDE classes someone rented a Miata racecar and with a new driver behind the wheel he passed most of the class......The back stretch allowed me to put all 500hp of my car down and the only reason I stayed in front of that little thing! (but HPDE is not a race so it doesn't matter anyway)

[brkntrxn]

I have owned supercharged track cars. DONT DO IT!!!

[brooksv3]

I was kinda worried about heat soak and reliability with a power adder but then wondered how a built motor with cam would respond as most of those are built for 10-12 second runs.

 

My delima is I have run a Boss at Miller's for a day and my own Boss at Mid Ohio for a weekend. I did the brake fluid change and cooling duct thing. The car handled great and the pull down the straitaways was exhilarating. However, the first day I ran at MO it rained most of day and 1st 3 runs were in the rain with windows down. A BMW (looked new) on track at same time did a 180 and ended up swipeing the concrete wall. Thankfully my instructor had warned me about the spot and I had felt it on previous laps. I had a great time but was a bit apprehensive. So now I'm wondering should I be doing this with a 40k car. Yes I know there are 100k+ cars running but that's a lot to me.

 

So now I'm looking for something with some kick (300 hp?) with brakes and suspension. I know a Miata with an experienced driver would kick my rear end but there's something about having to do everything, accelerate, brake, shift, etc. rather than flat out the entire time. So would a stang with a 302 or 347 stroker be a good or bad idea?

[getfast]

There aren't really any bad ideas here - go with whatever sounds like the most fun to you.

 

Generally the less horsepower it has, the harder you'll have to drive it to go fast and the more you'll learn as a result. This is one of many reasons why Miatas make such great track cars. That said, I don't own one either.

 

Anyway there are plenty of used street, track, and race Mustangs out there. Does what you're looking for need to be street legal? Approximate price range? How far would you travel for the right car? (So we can narrow down our suggestions.)

[TowDawg]

It sounds like budget is one of your concerns, so don't only look at the cost of the car. Make sure you consider the running costs as well.

I'm not sure how popular they are where you are, but the Thunder Roadster is a hell of a fun drive! I ran my Viper for a long time, and while the power and torque is nice, the TR is even more fun to drive. For one thing, I'm not worried about hurting it, parts are very cheap, and the running costs are next to nothing.

Viper:

R6's = $1700 and last 2 weekends

Brake Pads = $500 and last 1 weekend

Brake Rotors = $1800 and usually 75% of the season

Fuel (mixing 110 @ $10/gal and 93) = 50+ gallons / weekend depending on track and run time

General maintenance after a weekend (oil, diff, brake fluid, trans fluid, etc) = $A lot lol

And God forbid you get into a wall, blow a motor, trans, etc.

Thunder Roadster:

Hoosier Spec Tires = $380 and usually last 75% of the season

Brake Pads AND Rotors = $250 and last over a full season

Fuel (93 only) = 15-20 gallons

General maintenance after a weekend (basically change the oil and filter) = $20

 

A lot of the guys running TR's in the Southeast have come from (and still have and run) much more expensive and higher powered cars, but they have more fun in the TR's than anything else.

 

As far as track times, I've run a 1:42 at Road Atlanta in the TR (still learning the car), and consistent 1:36's in the Viper. However, RA is a power track. Somewhere like Roebling, we're talking about 1:21 in the TR and 1:19 in the Viper.

 

Add up the costs and compare the difference in lap times, and suddenly horsepower isn't near as important.

[kbrew8991]

TurdRoasters are very popular only in SE region - also single seat, so no spot for an instructor

 

If you're into Mustangs, picking up someone's old CMC or AI race car may get you the cheap replaceable car with a kick in the pants you're looking for, with a cage & all that extra safety equip, and at worst you may have to add an extra seat for your instructor but that's not terribly hard.

[TowDawg]

Very true about the single seat. I forgot he was talking about HPDE and would have an instructor with him.

 

I'm not taking offense to the "turd" comment at all (they're cheap-ass little cars), so don't think this coming as a "FU" type comment at all, but have you driven one? Just about everyone I know who has tracked one had a blast in it.

 

I'm kind of surprised that they haven't grown in other regions, but in the SE we are growing by multiple cars every year. I think we're up to 29 or 30 now. I guess if you don't have a spec class for them, they wouldn't be as fun. I know in SCCA they get classed with the "sports racers", which includes Radicals, Stohrs, etc. If I was running to against those cars in my TR, it certainly wouldn't be very fun getting lapped all the time! lol

 

Sorry the thread-jack with my reply. Back to the topic at hand.

 

If you are familiar with Mustangs, the suggestion of a used CMC (or even AI) car is an excellent one. You get a car that's already had all of the upgrades for racing (especially safety-wise), that you can use for HPDE and beyond. It's almost always cheaper to buy a car that's already done than to do it yourself from scratch.

If you check the NASA classifieds and Racingjunk, you can find both CMC and some AI Mustangs for $10k-$12 (and much cheaper). Granted, a $12k AI car probably isn't going to be very competitive in the AI racing class, but it would be a fun HPDE car with more power than a CMC car. Either way, I'm sure your instructor will prefer being a car with all the safety equipment vs a street car.

[kbrew8991]

I've been around some - those and Legends cars do crop up from time to time in the largely PT dominated race group I run with here in TX. If they were more popular across a few more regions, and had some sort of National class status (or were competitive within a National class), I'd be able to take them alot more seriously sorry! They seem to be just about as fun-to-drive and fun-to-race appearing as CMC, SM, SE30, 944-Spec, or any other low(er) cost Spec or Semi-Spec series car. If the fields are deep, any of those classes can be fun and challenging to race sure. If they're not deep, well... why pick it? Flows into the advice I always try and shove down any newbie's throat - look at the classes that are popular where you'll be running and pick the one that most interests you. You'll have more (and generally better at the front) people to race against, learn from, drive with, etc which will help you develop into a better driver and racer sooner. Nobody cares about 1st of 1s, and you shouldn't either.

 

At any rate, one last thing to leave with - try and get a feel for what a well done cage and poorly done cage looks like. If you can't, try and find someone that you do trust with those sort of evaluations to help you. Nothing worse than getting a car with a crappy cage that's less safe than if it were left alone as a street car!

 

(PS - alot of classes have fun nicknames to throw around - Spec Miata = Smash Pinata, Wreck Pinata, PTF = PT Fail, PT FreakinSlow, etc etc... it's all in good fun )

Edited November 19, 2013 by Guest

[TowDawg]

Hell, running with the spec Miata's, 944's and E30's, they ought to be calling the TR's the piñatas! Those damn E30 guys will run you over! Of course I mean when WE are passing THEM, as they don't pass us very often.

[brooksv3]

Viper:

R6's = $1700 and last 2 weekends

Brake Pads = $500 and last 1 weekend

Brake Rotors = $1800 and usually 75% of the season

Fuel (mixing 110 @ $10/gal and 93) = 50+ gallons / weekend depending on track and run time

General maintenance after a weekend (oil, diff, brake fluid, trans fluid, etc) = $A lot lol

And God forbid you get into a wall, blow a motor, trans, etc.

 

$2500/weekend. It won't be a Viper

TowDawg needs to slow down

 

I have been watching racejunk and I may widen my preferences.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions.

[t500hps]

Not only do I second buying someone's CMC car...that's exactly what I did.

 

I started HPDE in a slightly modified SRT8 Charger. It puts down 400hp to the ground and runs 12's in the 1/4. As you now know, running a road course is 100X more fun. I spent $$$ upgrading brakes, cooling for the motor and almost changed suspension when I realized I needed to get a $40K car off the track as well.

 

This is the direction to go if you know you will be spending more than a weekend or 2 a year on the track:

Some buddies were running CMC and I wanted to W2W against them. I searched for awhile and ended up buying a 96 mustang that had been run in CMC for a number of years. It came with ALOT of spares and 3 sets of tires/wheels......even with spending some $$$ on the car to make it mine I don't have $10K in this car. I'm also in a fully caged race-prep car that I'm alot less concerned about my safety if I go off track.

 

For you, a mustang is already somewhat familiar territory, I had never owned a stick shift before!!!! (the Charger is an "auto-stick"). Even more surprising, my mustang is 1,100 lbs lighter but makes 240hp (vs 400hp) at the wheels. On the back straight of VIR I'm nearly 30 mph slower in the mustang but when comparing lap times I'm 5 seconds faster in it. As fun as it was in the Charger, and I occasionally miss the acceleration, the mustang was a wise investment for regular track use....besides, you will wear out items in your daily driver if you keep doing this.