When does the passer have the right to the line?

[Scott G.]

Not only is the answer is not what I thought it was, the issue is probably goofed. How could I possibly have been racing all this time and not understood this?

 

Cliff notes.

 

1) The right to the line rule, 25.4.3 does not agree with an example in Appendix A. IMO Appendix A is right and the rule is goofed.

 

2) I am surprised to find out that the passer gets the right to the line well prior to completing the pass. I bet that most folks missed this also.

 

Details.

I thought that the passer got the right to the line after completing the pass. But apparently the passer gets the right to the line, not just the right to "racing room" but the right to "the line" and therefore control of the situation, well before the pass is completed. There seems to be a question tho as to just when the passer gets "the line". Is it when passer's wheel gets up to passee's door, or is it when passee's wheel falls back to passer's door? The rule says the former. That is to say the passer gets the line before he is even fully along side the passee. Consider what that means.....a car that is not in the lead owns the line and therefore dictates the situation. That does not make sense to me.

 

An example in the CCR (Appendix A, example 8 ), however, indicates that the passer doesn't get the line until his car is a bit ahead of the passee. That is to say...whoever is ahead has the line and therefore dictates the situation. This seems logical.

 

25.4.3 Right to the Line

The driver in front has the right to choose any line, as long as they are not considered to be blocking. The driver attempting to make a pass shall have the right to the line when their front wheel is next to the driver of the other vehicle.

 

I'm thinking that this is goofed. The passee gets the right to racing room when their wheel gets to the door of the passer. Racing room is not "the right to the line". Maybe the paragraph above is supposed to read...

 

25.4.3 Right to the Line

The driver in front has the right to choose any line, as long as they are not considered to be blocking. The driver attempting to make a pass shall have the right to the line when the passee's front wheel has fallen back to the passer's door.

 

Example 8 from CCR Appendix 26.0 seems to support my version of 25.4.3.

 

Scenario of passer getting the right to racing room well before pass is completed: You are slowly pulling up to Joe on a straight. You then have overlap, but no right to be there. Then you get your front wheel up to Joe and you earn 3/4 car width "racing room". A sec later the front bumpers are even. 1sec later your front bumper is out in front by 12" and you now have the right to the line. It is Joe that has only the right to "racing room".

 

In a scenario where passer is trying to take a corner away from someone else, this means that the passer gets to choose any line he wants thru the turn as soon as he gets his bumper 12" in front or so. I'm saying 12" because if your bumper has moved 12" in front of mine, then my front wheel has fallen back to your door. This means that passee is pretty much required to give the turn up if passer gets a little bit ahead.

 

CCR Appendix A has a number of diagrams of specific incidents. In italics below is the text associated with example 8. For the diagram, look to the CCR. Figure 8. What the diagram shows is B passing A, then when B's bumper is several feet forward of A, B moves outboard to set up for the turn. B moving outboard results in punting himself across the bow of A. The critical part is the text gives B the right to the line at point 4, even tho B's nose is only a couple feet forward of A. Further, the text explicitly states that the trigger for B owning the line is that A's (passee) front wheel is no longer at B's (passer) door. Consider that in the context of the two versions of 25.4.3 above. if this example is correct, and IMO it is, then 25.4.3 is wrong.

 

This is the text from the CCR Appendix A, example 8:

Car B is attempting to make a pass. After point 4, Car B has the right to choose his/her line as per the rules. This means that Car A must back out of it. However, the fault still lies with Car B. This is where things get tricky. There are two different rules that govern this situation, and it is up to the Race Director to make a determination. The first rule states that Car B has a right to choose any line because Car A no longer has a wheel next to the driver of Car B. Therefore, Car A must relinquish the lead. However, there is another rule that says that the driver that is attempting to make a pass has the responsibility the overriding rule would be the latter. That is why Car B would be at fault. Car B failed to complete a safe pass. The whole intent of the “wheel next to the door” rule is to make sure that the overtaken drive overtaking car. Well in this case, the driver of Car B clearly knew that Car A was there because he/she was the one making the pass.

 

Thoughts?

Edited December 18, 2013 by Guest

[Grintch]

I applaud NASA trying to better define this in the rules, as most sactioning bodies don't, resulting in lots of arguments and finger pointing.

 

Personally I don't like the "right to the line" and 3/4 of the car statements. If a car is beside you, you can't just drive wherever you want just because your nose is slighly ahead. And when it talks about racing room, it allows you to squeeze him off the track (but only 1/4 of the way).

 

But I do basicly agree that if you just have your nose in, the other guy probably won't realize your are along side so you don't have a right to the line and will likely get cut off/run into unless you back out. I think if you have your wheel up to his door, you are along side and he should see you and give you room.

[Scott G.]

I applaud NASA trying to better define this in the rules, as most sactioning bodies don't, resulting in lots of arguments and finger pointing.

 

Personally I don't like the "right to the line" and 3/4 of the car statements. If a car is beside you, you can't just drive wherever you want just because your nose is slighly ahead. And when it talks about racing room, it allows you to squeeze him off the track (but only 1/4 of the way).

 

But I do basicly agree that if you just have your nose in, the other guy probably won't realize your are along side so you don't have a right to the line and will likely get cut off/run into unless you back out. I think if you have your wheel up to his door, you are along side and he should see you and give you room.

 

I don't think that anything in the "right to the line" and "3/4 rule" allows one driver to squeeze the other off the track. This is a misconception that is clarified in Appendix A of the CCR.

http://spece30.com/forum/62-incidents-and-rules-lessons-learned/74606-squeezing-the-passer-to-34-track-width

 

http://spece30.com/forum/62-incidents-and-rules-lessons-learned/75167-passing-and-contact

[bob-e]

studied this for a while and it looks to me like the rules don't contradict the examples at all. in fact figure 8 is almost patterned exactly like the se30 incident (at least at point 4). looks like cobetto followed the rules to a tee and gave one point to each. 1 for not giving room and 1 for failing to make a safe pass. I do agree that the rule is suspect though. If I was in white e30, I would be furious that i got hit and double furious that i got a point, but thems tha rules. red e30 still hasn't said why he turned down on him (trying to take line per rules, didn't see him, bee in his helmet?)

 

Either way, you aren't gonna get anywhere here. Send an email to national with supporting vid examples and maybe get a rule change. If not, just give your guys and gals a big speech before the race and make sure everyone knows the rules as they are.

[Scott G.]

studied this for a while and it looks to me like the rules don't contradict the examples at all. in fact figure 8 is almost patterned exactly like the se30 incident (at least at point 4). looks like cobetto followed the rules to a tee and gave one point to each. 1 for not giving room and 1 for failing to make a safe pass. I do agree that the rule is suspect though. If I was in white e30, I would be furious that i got hit and double furious that i got a point, but thems tha rules. red e30 still hasn't said why he turned down on him (trying to take line per rules, didn't see him, bee in his helmet?)

 

Either way, you aren't gonna get anywhere here. Send an email to national with supporting vid examples and maybe get a rule change. If not, just give your guys and gals a big speech before the race and make sure everyone knows the rules as they are.

I disagree about the contradiction. The rule says the trailing driver has the line. The example shows the leading driver as having the line. To me that's a pretty clear contradiction.

 

Jerry Kunzman, NASA honcho and the author of the CCR, patiently stuck out a protracted email exchange with me yesterday. I, of course, assumed he'd just agree with me and say that 25.4.3 would be modified to agree with example 8. That is to say, 25.4.3 would say that when the passer got ahead, passer owned the line. It would define "getting ahead" perhaps as passee's wheel having fallen back to passer's door.

 

But no, Jerry Kunzman didn't agree with me. This happens a lot actually but somehow I always find it surprising.

 

Jerry said words to the affect that once passer has the "right to racing room" that both drivers need to share the track. Neither driver "owns the line". Further that the intent of example 8 was not to show how the "right to the line" had transferred from passee to passer prior to pass completion, but was instead meant to show how passer can screw up a situation by failing to "safely complete the pass" in a "shared track" scenario. The next version of the CCR is supposed to get a couple word changes to make this issue more clear.

 

Squeezing is a different subject but since it was also mentioned in this thread, Jerry also emphasized that nothing in the CCR gives one driver the right to squeeze out another.

 

So what does this mean for us? In large classes we spend a lot of time along side each other, and there's an awful lot of passing, sometimes quick at turn-entry, sometimes long and slow on a straight. The sheer number of passes, and the protracted opportunity for bad ideas in a long slow pass, make it important that passing rules are perfectly understood by all participants. The common wisdom had been that the passee "owned the line" until the pass was completed. There are numerous incidents over the last several years where the passee made life hard for the passer while they were over-lapped, and then used the "passer owns the line, I only had to give him 3/4" idea to defend themselves against accusations of ass-hattery. Scott Barton put together a collection of videos at SpecE30.com that shows just how badly this can end up. Hopefully it's pretty clear now that once the passer earns racing room the line does not exclusively belong to the passee. Therefore the passee is obligated to play nice.

 

Before anyone is tempted to show us that they've failed to read the CCR by saying " but the 3/4 rule means passee owns the line" they should look at Appendix A again.

 

26.0, Appendix A. The main purpose of the “¾ car width” rule is not to allow one driver to “squeeze” the other driver. The main purpose and intent is to alert the mind of the driver that is contemplating a pass that he/she may be “forced” to go two (2) wheels off-course to avoid a collision. Basically, this means that the overtaking driver must be certain that he/she can attempt the pass with room to spare, and must be prepared to take evasive action if necessary.

 

The 3/4 rule is something for the passer to be thinking about when he's scheming his pass. It's not a rule that allows the passee to play rough.

[Greg G.]

New ST and PT Rule this year:

 

9.5 On-Course Conduct

In addition to the passing rules in the NASA CCR, along any straight section of the track,

whether attempting to pass or attempting to prevent a pass, a driver that forces another

competitor to drive off the racing surface in order to prevent car-to-car contact will be penalized

by the Race Director. The penalty will be solely at the discretion of the Race Director, but the

suggested minimum penalty for such a dangerous and unsportsmanlike maneuver is

disqualification and a one race suspension.

 

Of all of the possible situations that can arise, the most ridiculous is to have two cars going down the straight, and the car in front makes a move to "block" by forcing the other car off the track. These types of moves can be extremely dangerous at straight-away speeds and with concrete barriers that have open sections for track entrance just a few feet from the racing surface.

[sfteague]

I know also that individual race series may modify the amount of room you are required to leave. In GTS this year it is one car width + 6" (per the 2014 GTS rules).

[kbrew8991]

25.4.3 did get clarified for 2014.... some slight edits to Figure 8 as well.