car selection and progression towards a license

[chance]

I searched but could not find anything in the forums about:

1. - Is there a minimum (actual or practical) performance requirement of the car itself for any HPDE level?

2. - Will switching to a higher-performing car along the way automatically send you back to square one, or just delay further progression until you're comfortable with the increased performance?

 

I ask because I am really interested in the baby grands MMRA Pro Road Race series, but I don't want to plunk down $10,000 before I even make my first (on track) attempts at high performance driving. As of now, all i got is a stock 97 corolla, which i know VERY well off-track, but I'm wondering if the lack of performance would become a danger or distraction to others at a certain HDPE level - or if it would be unacceptable even for level 1 and 2. I'd like to get make a little progress with what I've got now before investing any serious cash, to make sure I like it - but I wouldn't want to piss everyone else off, or endanger them, with my slow-a$$ car.

 

Any advice?

[Frank Corkran]

No problem with the Corolla. In the lower classes the driver skill far outweighs the capabilities of the car. Everything you learn in the Corolla will apply to future vehicles. When you do switch to something with more capability you'll of course have to become accustomed to the higher speed, g-forces, responsiveness and handling traits, but you will be building on a solid foundation rather than blindly jumping in over your head. If only all students would take this path rather than wasting time and money trying to make their car better instead of making themselves better. Plus, you can probably flog the Corolla mercilessly without so much as a hiccup for a long time. The faster the car, the greater the stresses placed on it when driven hard. A low hp track car is a low maintenance track car.

 

The HPDE classes have nothing to do with the speed of the car, only the skill of the driver. Slower cars in more advanced groups just give more pointbys. The drivers in the upper groups have shown they can deal comfortably and safely with all types of traffic. It's not racing, so nobody should be worrying about being "slowed down". When you're ready to move to racing you might consider renting something similar (with crew support) to get comfortable and learn the type of car. You might even want to use a rental to get your license before buying your own race car and having to deal with car prep, etc.

 

Go for it.

[chance]

i totally forgot that it's a 4sp automatic - doh! maybe i should drop a manual tranny in beforehand? They can't be very much rebuilt - or even from a junkyard - and i could do it myself pretty easily.

[Eric J.]

There are probably cheaper/easier routes than changing the tranny in the Corolla. A decent used car with a manual tranny makes a fine HPDE machine, and then you leave your Corolla's reliability intact for street use.

 

Used Miatas are not expensive and are great track cars. Somebody local picked one up for $800 and has made a pretty stellar HPDE car out of it. Old V8 Mustangs, VW GTis, Porsche 944s, whatever, with manual trannies are not that hard to find and not very expensive to buy and set up for HPDE.

 

Look around a bit, you may even be able to liberate a track-prepped car from somebody for not much money. If you're looking at the $10k for a race car, a much smaller investment as a stepping stone is probably not a bad idea.

 

Another advantage of a dedicated track car is that you learn what tweaks are effective and what aren't. That will serve you well should you decide to get the race car.

[CaptainWho]

I won't comment on any particular make or model, because I'm ignorant about most of them. But I will say that you should start with (1) a manual transmission because you'll have to race with one if you want to do that eventually, and (2) start with a car in which an instructor can ride with you. Ride-along instruction works much better, especially at the beginning of your educational journey, than "from the corners" instruction, IMNSHO.

[chance]

Wow! Great suggestions guys. I was just thinking about how I need a manual tranny but don't want to jack around with my stellar-ly dependable commuter car. Guess I'll start looking for that sub-$800 car on eBay or something.

 

Thanks a lot!!!

[Zee]

Wow! Great suggestions guys. I was just thinking about how I need a manual tranny but don't want to jack around with my stellar-ly dependable commuter car. Guess I'll start looking for that sub-$800 car on eBay or something.

 

Thanks a lot!!!

 

Here's a student's perspective......

 

I drive the Volvo, O.K.?

 

http://forums.turbobricks.com/profile.php?do=editprofilepic

 

Yeah, it's a Turbo but it's also an automatic. I shift it manually (it's a point of skill evaluated in the NASA HPDE Passport -- logbook -- by the way)

 

It's all those thing you fretted about -- slow, in the way, etc.

 

Since finding NASA last year and driving in 10+ events with them and some others clubs, not an event has gone by that I didn't think about getting rid of it "for something better"

 

I have all the excuses for selling it, too, believe me!

 

But why?

 

I need to learn how to drive. I don't need a prepared race car to teach me that (for now)

 

The driving's the thing.

 

If it were me doing the past years of HPDE all over again, I'd take that first $800 of yours and go drive.

 

Period.

 

That'll buy you about 4 days of track time and instruction. No broken down Miata will teach you anything more than four track days will.

 

At this point, you don't even know what you don't know.

 

Not about car handling, nor your preferences, nor using your eyes, brakes, throttle, steering, etc.

 

My advice is:

 

Drive, drive, drive

 

Then drive some more.

 

In time you'll come to the place where you can handle your daily commuter well enough that you can actually "drive the course".

 

that is, you can confidently attack the course instead of thinking about each thing you need to be doing to control your car. In golf, using that metaphore, you can challange the course, not worry about your swing.

 

Car control has become automatic.

 

THEN, you'll have some experience upon which to base your next car purchase. It''ll be a matter of "what will complement my driving to help me be quick?"

 

I saw those "legends" cars racing at Hyperfest last month. They sure are fast. I surmise they take a great deal of skill and experience to pilot in a race situation.

 

Drive, drive and drive some more....

 

Put NO excuse in your way of getting onto the track.

 

With training and experience (first), You can pilot a lot of other things when you're done with your Corolla

 

When your HPDE Passport shows mastery of driving skills, you'll have reason (not excuse) for looking for a new ride.

[mtm68]

You can HPDE anything..

example #1: http://images.miller-motorsports.com/thill062505/P6260114.jpg

 

Example #2: http://images.miller-motorsports.com/thill062505/P6250021.JPG

 

& more pictures form that weekend: http://images.miller-motorsports.com/thill062505/ (DUW- 56K beware.)

 

Make sure its reliable and ready for the track. Be especially conscientious of anything that affects your ability to stop and steer.

 

 

Marcus

[nape]

Just another student's perspective.

 

I have a '90 Firebird that I drag raced a little bit [motor still basically stock though] and I decided to strip it into a track car. I ended up burning up the automatic at the end of the 2nd HPDE1 session in the car and I haven't even learned how to drive it that quickly yet.

 

If it was my daily driver I would've been SOL. Driving events are great, but I'd be scared to do it in my DD. My $.02.

[mitchntx]

A well maintained car CAN pull double duty ... to a degree.

There will come a time, though ...

 

I open tracked my daily for years and it never stranded me. But, I also didn't drive it 10/10s either.

 

I then got the bug for a race car and bought a '96 Trans AM and am about to shed my CMC rookie status next weeekend, I hope.

 

I looked at my old OT car this past weekend ... it has cob webs on it ...

 

I liked the idea of you finding a Miata. those are great cars to learn to drive. Momentum, momentum, momentum ....

[Frank Corkran]

I liked the idea of you finding a Miata. those are great cars to learn to drive. Momentum, momentum, momentum ....

 

What, you don't think a Corolla automatic is a momentum car?

[mitchntx]

As I understand it, the goal is to start in HPDE and progress to W2W racing in a Baby Grand.

 

Starting off the learning process in an automatic transmission car will create some bad habits.

 

Not learning bad habits is a lot easier than un-learning them.

 

JMHO - YVMV

[924sowner]

with as much power as a corolla has (or dosent) it had better be a momentum car... though its alot more tricky to have a momtum car then it is to have one that isint 8in my opinion* ive had expreience in a spec 125cc rotax go-kart and ran about as fast as that thing *and my skill* could go... then i jumped into a shifter, ran a couple laps that were far from smooth, embarrased my rotax times and scared the $h!t outa me...

kinda makes sense then that i also end up with a momentum car, porsche 924s... i dont reccomend them much though unless youve got alot of money for maintenice (sp?) they tend to drain your pocket book before you realise it... so far ive put in nearly $4k into a car i bought for $1425 off ebay... but yeah, stick with the corolla, toyotas are really reliable and it should give you a great learning experience.

[Zee]

As I understand it, the goal is to start in HPDE and progress to W2W racing in a Baby Grand.

 

Starting off the learning process in an automatic transmission car will create some bad habits.

 

Not learning bad habits is a lot easier than un-learning them.

 

JMHO - YVMV

 

What bad habits come with driving an automatic vs. manual transmission?

[mitchntx]

Hand and footwork mostly.

 

There really is a world of difference when you have to drive with one hand, brake, clutch, shift, blip throttle, release clutch and turn in all WITHOUT hopping the rear.

 

I'm not saying bad habits can't be overcome.

[CaptainWho]

To paraphrase military training doctrine: Train like you want to race, because you'll sure as heck race like you trained.

[Zee]

Hand and footwork mostly.

 

There really is a world of difference when you have to drive with one hand, brake, clutch, shift, blip throttle, release clutch and turn in all WITHOUT hopping the rear.

 

I'm not saying bad habits can't be overcome.

 

Oh, THAT!

 

 

I left-foot brake all the time. The puts me half way there, I figure.

[924sowner]

left foot braking is really only effective on an automatic unless you have enough skill to downshift without a clutch. *that can get tricky, and if your not dead on with timing and perfect revvs, hard on synchros, gears, and tires... not to mention the whole thing whit the corner coming up at a rather high rate of speed....*

[subachad]

I think I might have seen you at the last Willow Springs event I went to. I was in a Blue Mazdaspeed Protege that started the day in HPDE2 and ended in HPDE 3.

 

I Have gone to the track in a few different cars, all completely different. My "track" car is an older style Subaru Impreza Turbo which I have spent the year sorting through bugs. I went to the first Willow Springs event in my AT Daewoo Lanos. The experience was great, but it does get a little frustrating catching up to cars in the turns only to get slaughtered on the straights. I then took my Subaru to the track, but with 1 pound of boost due to a blown exhaust gasket I only was getting about 100hp. I did better than the Daewoo thanks to good suspension, but it was slower on the straights than the Daewoo. The Mazda pretty much owned... not bad for being on 3 different tires (two tires were blown the week before the event)

 

Point is, get out and drive, that's most important. Every car handles different and depending on your ability to cope and compensate could make you a better driver overall. For example the Daewoo had some pretty bad snap oversteer and was front wheel drive... that's a lot different than my Subaru which up until I installed the rear sway bar and brace would push VERY bad in the turns. Also skid control is WAY different between the two cars. The Mazda?

 

All that being said, install a tranny cooler on the Corrolla. I would also consider a set of springs because if that was you, that car has some massive body roll on turn 8, I'd worry an off track excursion could flip your car.

 

Chad