HPDE crashes

[chance]

Someone was telling me about 30 or so cars, out of about 300-ish, were smashed real bad in the HPDE sessions at Infineon last weekend. Is this 1 out of 10 cars wreck thing normal? Kinda making me have second thoughts about taking anything out there other than something I can totally afford to lose.

 

I am 100% positive I will not wreck unless someone else does something stupid which forces me into something I cannot avoid. I'm in zero hurry to get a license, probably at the expense of not advancing very quickly but hey I've got nothing to prove. But, it kind of scares me that so many people ignorant of what they can and cannot do are out there and could hit me. I guess due to the waivers and such, they wouldn't be liable for a penny of property damage if they hit me?

 

If anyone was out there and saw the carnage can you tell me if most of those smashed cars were victims of their own mistakes? How many cars were doing fine until someone else hit them?

 

Thanks!

Chance

[mitchntx]

I think someone might be yanking your chain ...

[white_2kgt]

Kinda making me have second thoughts about taking anything out there other than something I can totally afford to lose.

 

If loosing your car mean you won't have a ride to work, the ability to eat or survive then DONT take your car on track. You need to go out there each and every time and remember that. You NEVER know what can happen. You could have a tire blow out, be all alone on track and smack a wall and flip, you just never know.

[MCain]

I've never seen any car-to-car contact at a HPDE here in Texas at TWS. I have seen a few cars get totaled due to driver error, but they were always one-car accidents.

 

Even in those accidents, the driver's auto insurance policy paid on the claim, since it was an untimed, driver's education event, though I hear that some of the insurance companies are re-doing their policies to omit such coverage.

[CMC#64]

I was at Sears Point/Infineon Aug 6/7 and I don't recall anyone in HPDE wrecking... there were a few incidents between some other classes.... but did'nt see any HPDE's .... is that the weekend you were refering too.. it was a very large NASA weekend, we had 30 cars just in our CMC class

[chance]

Yeah, I wasn't there, but I was talking to a guy about getting a roll bar (DAS sport) for a 1990 911 C2 Cabriolet to do HPDE. He works in a shop with like 15 911 race cars, has installed a lot of bars and cages, and his advice, which he said take it or leave it, was to not get near the track (HPDE or otherwise) with a cabrio.

 

He believes (and it sounds correct to me) that in a rollover, the cabrio's windshield pillars often fold down and a roll bar (even the DAS) will not provide adequate protection. If this is true, perhaps he was exaggerating the HPDE wreckage a bit to make me understand that yes, it could happen to me, and with a cabrio I stand a much better chance of getting seriously hurt than in a solid-roofed car. A full cage, harnesses, etc is not an option as this is a shared toy for wife and me.

 

I thought it would be nice to use the car for HDPE as well (not racing), but now I'm kind of on the fence as to how good of an idea that is because I don't want to bend my brand new baby (insured, but not the point), and I don't want to take stupid additional risk (if that would be the case, I don't know) in addition to the inherent risks involved.

[mitchntx]

There is inherent risk in HPDE. Anything can happen.

 

But there is one thing you will have complete control over ....

 

You make the choice if you are gonna have fun at 8/10 or push it to 11/10 ... the rate of risk ramps up significantly between the 2.

 

By and large, HPDE is a very safe environment in which to stretch the legs of a car. The field is usually comprised of like minded folks ... that is, they don't want to bend or scratch their cars, either.

 

Rollbar, firesuit, HANS deveice .. they are all great ideas if you have them. Drive accordingly.

[zuperdave]

I was there and heard that there were something like 22 crashes. I was in TT and saw the after-effects of one solo spin out into a tire wall, but no body contact.

[BrianZ]

I am 100% positive I will not wreck unless someone else does something stupid which forces me into something I cannot avoid.

 

I thought the same thing.. no one helped me spin the car into the tire wall

 

If anyone was out there and saw the carnage can you tell me if most of those smashed cars were victims of their own mistakes? How many cars were doing fine until someone else hit them?

 

Thanks!

Chance

 

I saw a few HPDE cars hit tire walls, clement walls, and just pain break down. I did not hear, see or otherwise get told about and car to car contact. In the time I have been going to HPDE's (about 2 years) i have seen only 1 time that two HPDE cars came together.

 

Now, the #'s my be right, but they must be including RACE cars..

[Ev]

This is my third year working EV with NASA and have seen several single car incidents due to driver error. Only one due to a parts failure.

 

I can offer 2 pieces of advise

• 1. BOTH FEET IN if you spin!!!
  2. At Summit Points main track if you go off at 3 or 10, don't try to get right back on, go for the long ride till you bleed off some speed

Otherwise, just be safe and don't overdrive your talent...

[Jeff D]

Been with NASA for three years. Never seen any car-car contact in HPDE. If you want to get on track it doesn't get any safer than this. That being said accidents do happen. Need to decide if it's worth the risk to you.

[Voodoo]

There a reason why I don't do HPDE at Sears Point, too little runoff room. I personally don't go 10/10ths because I want to drive my car home and that is why I've never gone more than 2 off in the 2 years I've been doing HPDE.

[chance]

Thanks to everyone for clearing this up. As I suspected, the primary danger to me is my own (good or bad) judgement. Of course, anything involving a car and movement has risks that cannot be eliminated and I understand that.

 

I know I said I was 100% confident in my abilities, but I'm glad the subject was brought up. It has made me think that, well, everyone thought that way going in, and obviously not everyone was right.

 

I'm actually kind of glad that guy I talked to put a little fear into me. Maybe it wasn't 100% forthcoming, but it accomplished something very important - it made me check myself and be really prepared to stay within my limits - and remain very aware of the potential consequences if I don't. Maybe that was his intent. It was certainly more effective than telling me directly "there's a good chance YOU will mess up" which would have been easier to dismiss.

[mitchntx]

It has made me think that, well, everyone thought that way going in, and obviously not everyone was right.

 

 

VERY profound ... I think you will do just fine ...

[CaptainWho]

I am 100% positive I will not wreck unless someone else does something stupid which forces me into something I cannot avoid.

 

It doesn't have to be something stupid, either. It can be as simple as someone who has a small oil or coolant leak and no one has noticed it yet, or a blown engine close in front of you, and you're on a piece of track that's much slicker than it was the last time you came across it, just one lap ago.

 

As a different example, in driver's school, in the rain at Roebling Road, I varied my line out of turn two by less than a foot on one lap, hit a piece of sealer I hadn't hit before, and swapped ends in the blink of an eye.

[jp99gt]

Been with NASA for three years. Never seen any car-car contact in HPDE. If you want to get on track it doesn't get any safer than this. That being said accidents do happen. Need to decide if it's worth the risk to you.

Jeff, we had a two car contact just after T7 of BeaveRun - back in 2004, IIRC. It was in the rain, and the lead car spun going down the hill and the car behind him t-boned him.

 

Other than that, I cannot recall any HPDE contact car-to-car.

[Jeff D]

Well obviously I don't remember it but I trust Jim so if he says it happened then it happened.

[Falcon]

Here's an example of a moment where it could have turned nasty real quick, but the gods intervened and everything worked out:

 

Whoaaa! Nelly! Please don't let us hit!

[Zee]

Thanks to everyone for clearing this up. As I suspected, the primary danger to me is my own (good or bad) judgement. Of course, anything involving a car and movement has risks that cannot be eliminated and I understand that.

 

I know I said I was 100% confident in my abilities, but I'm glad the subject was brought up. It has made me think that, well, everyone thought that way going in, and obviously not everyone was right.

 

I'm actually kind of glad that guy I talked to put a little fear into me. Maybe it wasn't 100% forthcoming, but it accomplished something very important - it made me check myself and be really prepared to stay within my limits - and remain very aware of the potential consequences if I don't. Maybe that was his intent. It was certainly more effective than telling me directly "there's a good chance YOU will mess up" which would have been easier to dismiss.

 

 

A discussion thread over at EMRA for your consideration:

 

http://www.pliner.net/appmb/74cd5/170782

[Renntag]

I think that if you have your wits about you and you stay on top of your game. You should be fine. I have been participating in driving events for nearly ten years and I have not had any incident. I drive at 9/10 ability and occasionally hit 10/10. Keeping it safe is the name of the game. Keeping an eye on the flag stations and trying to be mindful of my car and its gauges.

 

Fortunately fate hasnt bitten me outside of that. Fingers crossed it never does.

 

FWIW: The track is far safer than our public highways. No lunatics, no cell phones, and no red lights and stop signs to run. There are so many aspects of public driving that are dangerous that jsut do not exist on the race track.

 

Go to the track and have fun.

[Neon2dmaX]

Yeah, I wasn't there, but I was talking to a guy about getting a roll bar (DAS sport) for a 1990 911 C2 Cabriolet to do HPDE. He works in a shop with like 15 911 race cars, has installed a lot of bars and cages, and his advice, which he said take it or leave it, was to not get near the track (HPDE or otherwise) with a cabrio.

 

He believes (and it sounds correct to me) that in a rollover, the cabrio's windshield pillars often fold down and a roll bar (even the DAS) will not provide adequate protection. If this is true, perhaps he was exaggerating the HPDE wreckage a bit to make me understand that yes, it could happen to me, and with a cabrio I stand a much better chance of getting seriously hurt than in a solid-roofed car. A full cage, harnesses, etc is not an option as this is a shared toy for wife and me.

 

I thought it would be nice to use the car for HDPE as well (not racing), but now I'm kind of on the fence as to how good of an idea that is because I don't want to bend my brand new baby (insured, but not the point), and I don't want to take stupid additional risk (if that would be the case, I don't know) in addition to the inherent risks involved.

 

Wouldn't it be better to pick up a cheap (make that inexpensive) car that you can dedicate to the track. I have seen numerous cars damaged at HPDE type events including events put on by NASA and Touring Car Club (TCRA). Not to scare you, but the following thread presents a graphic illistration of the types of things that can happen, even to those that have significant expereince: http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5451

 

Most of the incidents I have seen involve relatively high powered cars driven by relatively low (track) experienced drivers. Saw a new BMW destroyed at Willow Springs (still had the paper plates). Same with a WRX at Buttonwillow. Near new Porsche seriously damaged at BTW; Mustang at WS. I remember an event that occurred at Buttonwillow a few years back. MR2 turbo spun going over Majic Mountain and came to a stop on the track. Mitsu 3000GT came over the hill at speed... (apparently wasn't watching the corner worker)... hit the brakes... did a 180 and backed into the MR2. Oh yeah, this was on the cool down lap.

 

It is important to pay attention at the driver's meeting, and particularly important to know the flags and pay attention to the corner workers. Try to get used to the track and your fellow participants before even attempting to go full bore.

 

Back to my point. There are many cars that you can acquire for a relatively small price; probably less than the cost of a good paint job on a Porsche. Mustang; Nissan SER; Miata; Neon come to mind. Spend a grand installing the roll cage, seat and 5 point harness. The car can still be street legal with these safety items. Add minimal insurance and go have fun without worrying about damaging your new car. After you have had some experience, step up to a more powerful car, or convert your track car to a full race car.

[avu3]

As others have said. Don't take a car on track unless you can afford to write it off.

 

Also, a dedicated track car can save your primary ride, but does come at some expense. If you're driving it to/from the track it has to be registered and insured. If you're towing it, you need a trailer and tow vehicle.

 

You need storage for all these items. You also need time to maintain them all.

 

However, there are lots of old race cars out there looking for some TLC. Pro7s, Rabbits, Capris, lots of old solid SAFE cars that you could probably get nearly for free, throw some elbow grease at, and have a ball.

 

I have an opinon on crashes in HPDE. As a driver, the minute you think you are invincible, you're the most vulnerable. As a driver, every moment you are on track you have to be concentrating on hitting your marks. Location on track, location of traffic, conditions, etc. No one is immune from a mistake, not even the pros.

 

Second, most of the "unsafe" behaviour I have seen in HPDE (3+ years now hanging out at Norcal Nasa events) I would attribute to people not paying attention to what the instructors are saying, or showing off for their friends. You get nearly the same level of instruction in NorCal out of the HPDE instructors - both group and individual - as you do from a formal race school, but so many folks just get excited about driving their car on track they lose perspective.

 

If you're doing HPDE and never driven on track, figure your first day or two are written off just figuring out what to do. If you do and get to do it well, great, but if not, don't try to push it. Plan another weekend at the same track and get back out and then you'll start to enjoy it.

 

Scott