kinkyllama Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 How much of a difference can a simple wing usually make on a car? I have a hard time getting my car past 120.. it does seam to be a power issue b/c ive can get it past 120 with 5 ppl in it and it sits about 1.5-2inchs lower. I also can get up to about 120 just as easy on a hard corner as on straight away so it seems to be the areo. I plan on doing a front air dam but wounder how much difference a wing can make on a sedan? Also if you just bought a wing and slapped it on there, my guess is it may even hurt you. How do you tune it to work best? I've heard a little bit about the string thing... sounds kinda iffy to me. Thanks for any input, Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8cobra99 Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 A wing can make a good difference, assuming you get the right wing. I believe that wings generally make a difference on speeds above 70MPH. Most modern cars have good downforce cooefficient, like .30 to .35 . Ford claims using a proper air dam and wing/spoiler can improve downforce by 30%. I have a HPM 68in X 11in wing on my AI car, and HPM claims 650lbs of non-drag downforce at 130mph. So at our average race speeds of 90MPH, I might be getting 450lbs of downforce in the rear, which is huge, and good. In balance with a front splitter/air dam. IF you get the wrong wing, it will cause DRAG... Get a wing that is adjustable, so you can change the angle to fit the track needs. Typically, the angle is between 5 degrees to 10 degrees.... Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slock Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Nothing is Free! ANY downforce comes at the proce of drag. The key is to get the angle correct so you get the most downforce with a Minimum of drag. By the way, both drag and downforce increase at the square of speed. Double your speed and you get 4 times the drag! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8cobra99 Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 That is, the amount of drag that the Wing itself causes? An actual engineered wing ( upside down airplane wing), versus a flat blade/spoiler, will have less drag, more downforce. Essentially Zero angle, will have minimal/ near zero drag, I believe. Its drag increases as you increase the angle.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidfarmer Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 A splitter/wing combination can add hundreds of pounds of downforce, and at your speed (<120) the drag may be small enough to ignore. I'd go here and look at some of the World Challenge team setups. IMHO, if you get a wing, you will likely need a front spoiler/splitter to keep the car balanced. The splitter will create good downforce with very little drag, so you will want to add just enough wing to balance the car. Wings cause much more drag than front splitters. http://www.speedarena.com/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/Touring%20Cars/WTCC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 What do i need to look in for a front splitter? I did a quick search and everything i found was either for looks or model specific. I know theres nothing out for my car either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidfarmer Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 usually you can fabricate something out of sheet metal relatively easily. Drop straight down to a reasonable ride height, then rivet a flat splitter to the bottom of it. what kind of car do you have? Any pictures of the nose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 04 suzuki forezna Kind of a bad pic but its all i have right now and my cameras broken. Im kinda hazy of what a splitter is now.. when i did a search online i got ALL kinds of different things. Also when i get my KW suspension the car will be lowered a bit. I was planning on doing just a front air dam cuz ive seen huge improvments from that from other nasa members and doing a belly pan and stuff like that. But now ppl are telling me a splitter is best especialy w/ a wing What about this front bumper (j/w).. it has kinda of a lip at the bottom i see on alot of cars like the WTCC cars and stuff. Does that help? Plus the bumper brings it closer to the ground. Im not wild about the mesh though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidfarmer Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I think you could build an air-dam with splitter for your nose, or start with one similar to the second shot. You want the splitter to be the lowest part of the nose, and extend 2-3" from where it mounts. You could make something out of aluminum and run it, or use that to make a mold for building a copy in fiberglass. My problem with the second photo is that the "lip" is quite thick. I like a very think splitter, as more of the air goes up and around not under. Another problem, in this particular photo, is that the bottom is open. You can see air in front of the radiator. You need everything sealed off, and you want the air to go throught the radiator, then out the top (through a louvered hood) or the sides for full effect. I'll look around and see if I can find anything for a car like yours. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidfarmer Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Is this car like yours?? It would be very easy to make a flat plate and bolt it to the bottom of this nose. The simpler the better. Again, anything you can do to make the air go through/around/over and NOT under the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 I understand now. thanks a ton! How would your attach a splitter to a front air dam? Ive read some detailed posts about making front air dams and i cant see how you would mount a splitter to it cuz its just a thin piece of alluminum. ...This is going to take some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
924sowner Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 just my $.02, areo can work wonders for lap times when used correctly, however, a much bigger performance gain can be had by the right suspension setup. youll also notice bigger gains with the right wheel and tire package. more power would also be better for lap times at this point then a killer aero package. i can get my car up to nearly 150 even though its 'only' got about 110 hp at the wheels, if that... however, its secret to great lap times is its suspension and light weight. again, just the $.02 from a kid who has mostly theorys at this point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 just my $.02, areo can work wonders for lap times when used correctly, however, a much bigger performance gain can be had by the right suspension setup. youll also notice bigger gains with the right wheel and tire package. more power would also be better for lap times at this point then a killer aero package. i can get my car up to nearly 150 even though its 'only' got about 110 hp at the wheels, if that... however, its secret to great lap times is its suspension and light weight. again, just the $.02 from a kid who has mostly theorys at this point.... I know what you mean.. suspension is coming next month.. after the turbo (i would have it already but no1 makes anything yet). Its very hard to get my car past 125 and i know its an areo issue and not power ratio. The car pull just as hard from 90-125 with it stripped out as it does with 5 people and a bunch of junk in the trunk. When my tires are completly worn on my street wheels im gonna buy a seperate set for the track to save money in the long run since i drive 25k miles a year. So thats also something i should have after a couple more hours on the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Mac Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 How much of a difference can a simple wing usually make on a car? I have a hard time getting my car past 120.. it does seam to be a power issue b/c ive can get it past 120 with 5 ppl in it and it sits about 1.5-2inchs lower. I also can get up to about 120 just as easy on a hard corner as on straight away so it seems to be the areo. I plan on doing a front air dam but wounder how much difference a wing can make on a sedan? Also if you just bought a wing and slapped it on there, my guess is it may even hurt you. How do you tune it to work best? I've heard a little bit about the string thing... sounds kinda iffy to me. Thanks for any input, Danny In most cases, a wing with an appropriate sized splitter/undertray and airdam can significantly increase your car's level of downforce. At the same time, this downforce will generally result in increased drag. Good design can mitigate this drag from the addition of these components to your car. The net effect of high aero efficiency is a decrease in your lap times. The level of improvement depends on your car and the rules governing the class you're racing. Lower hp cars tend to see a small improvement and larger hp cars usually benefit most. The biggest wing design issues are related to wing size and mounting height above deck and overhang, wing aerofoil geometry, end plate size, and wing angle of attack adjustment. The efficiency of the wing will depend on the mounting location due to the inherently large scale turbulent flow aft of the rear window slope. If the wing is mounted too low, the effective airspeed over the wing will be low and, as a result, so will the downforce. Also, you want to mount the wing at least a chordlength above the deck because of the the pressure effect from having a high speed (low pressure) flow on the deck surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 Great replys! ...i shoulda posted here first months ago when i first started shopping. thanks! you can keep em coming to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 Im thinking about getting a body kit in the near future (if i ever find a decent one) so i dont wanna spend all the time on a front airdam/splitter. How effective are splitter/canards thingy for front downforce? cuz that'd be easy to switch to a new bumper. Its hard to find some that are advertized for downforce/areo rather than just looks though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Mac Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Im thinking about getting a body kit in the near future (if i ever find a decent one) so i dont wanna spend all the time on a front airdam/splitter. How effective are splitter/canards thingy for front downforce? cuz that'd be easy to switch to a new bumper. Its hard to find some that are advertized for downforce/areo rather than just looks though Other than Mugen, I don't know of any other body kits that are designed with aerodynamic downforce as a principle objective. Most kits are for show purposes only and may or may not have a positive effect on aerodynamics. You can use the factory front fascia and build the splitter and airdam (if necessary) onto the fascia mounting points. The splitter helps generate front downforce by utilizing the so-called stagnation point above the splitter and a high speed and thus low pressure region beneath the splitter. The stagnation point is where the flow comes to a complete rest and is in a region of high pressure. So you have high pressure pushing down on the top surface of the splitter and a lower pressure acting on the bottom surface. The net effect of this pressure difference is a force pushing down on the splitter. The size of the splitter, including the area underneath the car determines the amount of downforce created. If you use a splitter by itself, you will generate some front downforce and reduce the downforce (or increase the lift) at the rear of the car. The reason is due to the position of the net force that acts on the splitter. This position is in front of the front axle line so if you draw a free body diagram you will see that a net force in front of the front axles generates a negative force reaction at the rear axles. If the splitter is very large it can have a dramatic effect on the rear of the car by potentially creating a high speed oversteering tendency. If this is the case you must either run a rear wing or a deck spoiler or reduce the splitter to help create an aero balanced car. Canards can be used, but beware, they aren't very efficient downforce elements. They create some downforce but in the process, they also generate a lot of drag. Try to get the splitter to work for you before resorting to the canards. If you have extra power to throw at more downforce and you can run lots of wing, then the canards can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted November 6, 2005 Author Share Posted November 6, 2005 Im thinking about getting a body kit in the near future (if i ever find a decent one) so i dont wanna spend all the time on a front airdam/splitter. How effective are splitter/canards thingy for front downforce? cuz that'd be easy to switch to a new bumper. Its hard to find some that are advertized for downforce/areo rather than just looks though Other than Mugen, I don't know of any other body kits that are designed with aerodynamic downforce as a principle objective. Most kits are for show purposes only and may or may not have a positive effect on aerodynamics. You can use the factory front fascia and build the splitter and airdam (if necessary) onto the fascia mounting points. The splitter helps generate front downforce by utilizing the so-called stagnation point above the splitter and a high speed and thus low pressure region beneath the splitter. The stagnation point is where the flow comes to a complete rest and is in a region of high pressure. So you have high pressure pushing down on the top surface of the splitter and a lower pressure acting on the bottom surface. The net effect of this pressure difference is a force pushing down on the splitter. The size of the splitter, including the area underneath the car determines the amount of downforce created. If you use a splitter by itself, you will generate some front downforce and reduce the downforce (or increase the lift) at the rear of the car. The reason is due to the position of the net force that acts on the splitter. This position is in front of the front axle line so if you draw a free body diagram you will see that a net force in front of the front axles generates a negative force reaction at the rear axles. If the splitter is very large it can have a dramatic effect on the rear of the car by potentially creating a high speed oversteering tendency. If this is the case you must either run a rear wing or a deck spoiler or reduce the splitter to help create an aero balanced car. Canards can be used, but beware, they aren't very efficient downforce elements. They create some downforce but in the process, they also generate a lot of drag. Try to get the splitter to work for you before resorting to the canards. If you have extra power to throw at more downforce and you can run lots of wing, then the canards can help. Now thats the kinda reply i like. I dont even have any questions. Thanks alot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkd Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 Splitter/Venturi theory explained, with diagrams: http://e30m3performance.com/myths/splitter/splitter.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 Splitter/Venturi theory explained, with diagrams: http://e30m3performance.com/myths/splitter/splitter.htm cool, thanks. Never though about creating downforce by making the air going under the car low pressure...doesnt seem it would work as well though still as a splitter does that plus adds high pressure pushing down on the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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