TTing instructors - Why is it so hard for some of you?

[Cobra4B]

NASA Mid-Atlantic continues to consider ending TTing and instructing together because a few bozos keep screwing over students. It's NOT HARD!!!

 

1. You're there to instruct first, TT 2nd... student comes first.

 

2. When your student session backs up to the TT session you go run two timed laps and quit... very easy. Tell your student to meet you at your paddock spot, come in, swap cars, and go. I've been doing it this way for 4 years with zero issues... works beautifully every time.

 

3. If your student session is before your TT session well tough stuff, it happens, but the folks in charge try to avoid that.

 

4. Cobetto made a perfect schedule this weekend at VIR for TTing instructors and a few bozos commented "well can you fix the schedule so the sessions aren't back to back?" Seriously? If you want to TT then pay to TT... if you want to TT and instruct be thankful when they put your student session after the TT session so you can still get a good spot in line and run your laps.

 

5. If you want to run more than 2-3 laps per session go back to HPDE.

 

/Rant

[alwaysinboost]

I am one of those "bozos" who asked that the schedule be changed. It was far from perfect for TT'ing instructors, as you claimed. I don't see why it is so hard to not schedule DE1 right next to TT, it doesn't help anyone or make anything easier for anyone.

 

NASA Northeast region, where I primarily run, has the same run groups as Mid Atlantic, yet they have no issues staggering TT and DE1. The Northeast region also has absolutely no issued filling their instructor spots, ever. Funny how MA is always looking for more instructors... coincidence?

[Cobra4B]

What's wrong with having the HPDE-1 session immediately following your TT session? Why do you need to run the entire TT session? If you're going to come run with our region why would you leave your student hanging? Why would you run the entire TT session knowing it would put them out on track late?

 

My understanding is that HPDE-4 is given first priority for having no scheduling conflicts with HPDE-1 and 2 as that's where the majority of instructors run. Clearing up TT sessions is 2nd priority. On top of scheduling around races and classes. I've never had a problems having my students right after TT.... run 2 laps and come in. Even w/o a student session afterward I run 2 laps and quit... won't get any faster than that.

[f1honda]

obviously you haven't instruct/TT with other regions. there's no conflict with instructor/TT and DE1. Just don't schedule them next to each other. Some instructors from other regions are not familiar with the track and might want more than two laps. VIR is a long track, the warm up lap takes too long. after warm up lap, i did 3 hot laps and came in before the check came out, and by the time i came into pit lane, i was already stopped on the hot pit for them to let the DE1 out. that was the only time i was late for my student. thanks to the backup instructor who took my student for that session.

 

I talked with a few other instructors from southeast and they felt the same way.

[alwaysinboost]

What's wrong with having the HPDE-1 session immediately following your TT session? Why do you need to run the entire TT session? If you're going to come run with our region why would you leave your student hanging? Why would you run the entire TT session knowing it would put them out on track late?

 

Do I really need to explain why having DE1 and TT back to back isn't a good idea? Also, why wouldn't I want to run my entire session? I paid for the track time just like everyone else. Aren't I entitled to the same full sessions everyone else is?

 

For the record; I never left my students hanging and always put their track time and experience above my own, even if that means coming in early. I don't mind cutting my session short if it is needed, but with a little forethought and planning it isn't needed at all and just makes like difficult for everyone.

 

My understanding is that HPDE-4 is given first priority for having no scheduling conflicts with HPDE-1 and 2 as that's where the majority of instructors run. Clearing up TT sessions is 2nd priority. On top of scheduling around races and classes. I've never had a problems having my students right after TT.... run 2 laps and come in. Even w/o a student session afterward I run 2 laps and quit... won't get any faster than that.

 

I am happy that you just run two laps. If I ran with MA exclusively and only did TT on VIR and Summit I would only need two laps too. But for traveling instructors like myself, who run in multiple regions, that scenario is far from ideal. Come to WGI, LRP, NJMP, Thompson or a track you've never been at before and try to be competitive in your class with only 2 laps and see how that works out for you.

[heavychevy]

That schedule was pretty tough to instruct and TT. Seems it was planned for all instructors to be in DE4. Lots of Sunday sessions sandwiched by DE1 before and DE2 afterwards or vice versa. That's brutal.

 

That being said, the schedule was posted prior to the event. It's next to impossible to run across the paddock for a pre-grid next session that's pulling out as you are pulling in if you run the whole session. TT is not for getting as many laps as possible. Suck it up and tell the event organizers in person or email so they can adjust.

 

People have made it work in the past, and most did this weekend, so clearly it's possible. Brian is right that sacrifices may have to be made. Comes with the territory.

[hufflepuff]

I skip one to three sessions of TT every event because my TT sessions are sandwiched between students. I have come to expect and accept this. VIR is especially bad because the warmup does take way too long as previously mentioned. I get one flyer lap, ONE, and then it's time to pit in and literally run from my paddock to grid for my student. I always make my students my priority, hence entirely skipping numerous TT sessions each weekend.

 

What may help is to try to give the TT instructors one student a weekend. I saw that a few instructors only had one student. They get totally free entry and are there mainly for the purpose of instructing. The TT/instructors pay $50 and get shorter run sessions; it'd be nice to give TT guys one student where possible.

 

Above all, i'm there for my students, but i feel that assigning the TT/instructors with one student when possible would be a GREAT help.

[alwaysinboost]

Dez, you are correct, that was a brutal schedule for TTing instructors. I don't understand how Brain thinks it is "perfect".

 

Why should TT/instructors sacrifice when there is no need? Not only are we out there putting our life on the line in the right seat, but we are helping the region build a core group that will be the next racers/TT/instructors & DE champions. The gratitude we get for that risk is we are asked to cut our track time short. Why? The schedule can very easily be adjusted so DE1 is at least staggered by one session with instructors/TT. If not for all day, then perhaps a majority of it.

 

I have made a case to the power that be in the MA region, but it falls on deaf ears. At the Summer Breeze event I asked Chris via email that the schedule be adjusted to make life easier for instructors, but was blown off. I even went as far as to email a copy of a schedule that wouldn't change anything other than making life easier for instructors, but again I was blown off.

[alwaysinboost]

Here is a perfect example of how not to make a schedule:

 

http://www.nasaracing.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/nov14spr-sched-v2.pdf

 

That is the current schedule for the fall finale. Not only does DE4 and TT run together, but there is a DE1 session before or after every single timed session.

 

For comparison, here is the schedule for NASA NE at watkins glen two weeks ago:

 

http://nasane.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/NASA-AT-THE-GLEN-SAT.Sept_.27-2014-version-2.pdf

 

Note that TT and DE4 don't run together. Granted, there are more run groups to spread things out, but this is what the VIR schedule could have looked like.

[hoki06]

All Saturday I did the warm up lap (3-4 min lap, wtf), two hot laps, and came in the next time around. I was paddocked right near the tech shed so I didn't have to walk far to grid. I became one of those "bozos" when on Sunday, I did as I just described which worked perfectly all day Saturday, and the DE1 group was pulling out on track as I jogged up to grid. Thankfully, a backup instructor (thanks again Harry!) jumped right in and no track time was lost. In the end, no harm no foul but it was still upsetting that it happened. I ended up not driving my last 2 sessions because the schedule made it impossible for me to drive while still instructing through Sunday afternoon (DE2 then TT then DE1 for the last half of the day).

 

I haven't been driving for years and years like some have so I like to drive most of the TT session. Most of my faster times come from the latter half of the sessions when I can get into a groove and shake off the cobwebs.

 

I've only instructed for a handful of events but I have quickly realized that instructing while trying to TT is very frustrating. I understand the philosophy behind the current schedule design and you can never please everyone. Going forward I will either TT or instruct, not both. It's not fair to the student to risk me being late and it makes my weekend not enjoyable when I can only drive 2 laps before rushing back in.

 

Oh and since we're complaining about the schedule, I'll throw this out there. Why did we have two 45 min "fun" races Sunday morning (done by 11 am) which then only left DE and TT for the rest of the day. At that point, it's a no-win situation for a TTing instructor.

[getfast]

Here is a perfect example of how not to make a schedule:

 

http://www.nasaracing.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/nov14spr-sched-v2.pdf

 

That is the current schedule for the fall finale. Not only does DE4 and TT run together, but there is a DE1 session before or after every single timed session.

 

FF is pretty unique. It gets dark by 5pm... and most instructors run in HPDE4... and there are no race groups to use as buffers... and TT is typically not big enough at that event to warrant more than three sessions all by itself.

 

This schedule worked fine last year? Anyway, since FF is my event and the link above is a schedule I created, I'm open to revisions. Please feel free to work up a better version from the .xls I just sent you privately and email it to me anytime, thanks!

[alwaysinboost]

Sorry Jon, wasn't trying to single you out. It is difficult to stagger sessions when you only have 4-5 groups to work with. A better example would have been to pull the VIR schedule from this past Sunday.

[getfast]

No worries, but submitting specific revisions/changes is always appreciated... help us help you

[wheelhopper]

Here is my opinion on this.

 

I have been instructing and TTing for several years. I agree that the TT guys tend to get hit the hardest in MA with student sessions backing to TT sessions. I think it sucks but I also realize that running the track for no money outlay means I may have to make some sacrifices. I wish it was different but I also understand it is hard to make the perfect schedule for everyone.

 

I have pretty much given up on instructing an TTing for scheduling reasons. If they were in a jam and needed me I would help them though. For those who are griping about coming from other regions and needing to learn the track, pay for Friday and learn the track. I have done it. If you sign up for instructing, regardless what region you're from, your obligation is to your student. Sorry the track is new to you and you feel like you need more time to run. If that is the case then stop being a tight ass and pay for it.

 

I mainly run with MA and have instructed with NE and run with SE and can say they are not perfect either. Not sure if there schedule is better or worse as far as accommodating TT drivers but I can say I spent way more time on grid, waiting to get on track, at WG a couple weeks ago than I ever have with MA. I also know that the policy for SE, a few years ago, for TT was that if there was an accident where a corner was going to be yellow for a couple laps they would black flag the entire session on the theory that nobody would be getting any faster laps than previously obtained before the flag was thrown so what is the point in letting TT drive the track. That really sucks when you come from 11 hours away.

 

I am guessing that the chief instructor for MA knows who the unreliable TT/instructors are and hope he simply stops using them as instructors instead of letting them ruin the program for those of us who find a way to make it work.

[Trackrocket]

MY response to this is exactly the reasons mentioned herein:

1-What Brian said about getting your fast lap and coming in.

***If you can't be competitive, get your track on...in the instructor group.

You'll get every minute of your sessions.***

2-If Instructing, our schedule accommodates Instructors who elect to take their track time in the INSTRUCTOR group.

3-NASA MA has 7 run groups on a race weekend, if you can make a better schedule, with a gap between the two race groups (for timing and scoring's sake), no back to back HPDE 1&2 (for obvious reasons) all while accommodating the Instructors (who elect to take their track time in the INSTRUCTOR group), I'm quite certain that Chris and Jon would be all ears.

 

When TT was first introduced to MA, a few events later we asked the Instructor corps if any were interested and if they could work with the limitations of putting their student FIRST. What do you think the answer was?

 

Seems a good lot of you from other regions are complaining about our arrangement and comparing us to your region. Consider the size of our region, the value of running tracks like VIR for FREE, and then consider how we should arrange/schedule certain groups due to necessity/obvious reasons vice complaining and comparing?

 

If you're signed up to Instruct, consider whether competing or instructing is more important.

Consider if a HIGHLY discounted entry, lunch, Saturday evening festivities and discount programs are worth it while you have the opportunity to win tires, trophies and notoriety.

 

What next?? You want us to come change your wheels and pads for ya?

Geesh.

...and

 

For the person who said "NASA MA is 'always' looking for instructors"...does that mean that you misconstrue my "we could use a few more" emails as were hurting? Those emails are for YOU...as it's literally "the more, the merrier". Way more of a chance I could assign a TT'ing instructor ONE student if we have extras. Not every TT'er was assigned two students this weekend. "Favoritism" tends to be reserved for the instructors who work with us SEVERAL times a season, not the ones who show up once a season, whether they're from a visiting region, etc.

 

Is that how you really feel about our group, your team? That's a really negative response used for your personal agenda/gripe.

NOT cool.

[ja1217]

As a current time trialer who is looking to become an instructor next year, I may not have a place to talk in this conversation, so feel free to ignore my inexperienced advice.

 

For Fall Finale, I completely understand that it would be difficult to improve given the lack of extra run groups from racing. Using Hufflepuff's suggestion of trying to limit the Instructor/TT participants to only one student would probably help. I think that is a good idea, especially when you don't have race sessions to help split things up.

 

As for scheduling for both FF and in general, I understand it is impossible to make everyone happy and that students are the priority, followed by regular instructors. The only other thing I can suggest scheduling wise is to add/use a 5-10 minute course cleanup/worker break each day to give the Instructor/TT guys a little buffer inbetween their TT session and student time. This would allow them to have at least 2 full TT session each day (as usually one of the morning sessions is a full TT session) I think, although they would still have to hustle back to their students with only a 5 minute break.

[Trackrocket]

Wheelhopper, I do keep an event log of every instructor who swaps students, leaves early (for whatever reason), misses a student/session and I have gone to appointing grid "assistants" to help with the on grid backups and reporting to me who doesn't show up or is late for their student.

 

Ja1217, do you think it's fair to the other instructors to give special treatment to the TT'ers in the way of assigning ONE student? For the FF, the course worker break suggestion could work.

 

For the record, I fully support instructors who want to TT.

I have little respect for the ones who cannot fulfill their commitment to us and I have turned away a few this season or asked them not to register for TT.

[ja1217]

Ja1217, do you think it's fair to the other instructors to give special treatment to the TT'ers in the way of assigning ONE student?

**** You can ignore this post, missed where you addressed the worker break idea at first glance ***

 

No, I suppose you are right. That said, my second idea of using a 5-10 minute course clean/worker break doesn't screw anyone over as long as we aren't running out of daylight, which I admit is a possibility for a November event.

[drivinhardz06]

If you're signed up to Instruct, consider whether competing or instructing is more important.

Consider if a HIGHLY discounted entry, lunch, Saturday evening festivities and discount programs are worth it while you have the opportunity to win tires, trophies and notoriety.

 

What next?? You want us to come change your wheels and pads for ya?

Geesh.

 

In reality, both can be accomplished. There is no reason you should have to give extra time to one and take from the other. With a good schedule, I always have time to sit/talk to the student after a session download, even give some taxi rides to show things that are harder to describe with words and hand gestures while in the paddock.

 

I have instructed with MA under Jeff (not recently), and other than one event with 2 students where it was pretty difficult, most of the time was decent. Some tweaking of the schedule could have made things a little better. What I don't like the, is the attitude you (as an instructor) are somehow "mooching" free track time and not pulling your weight as part of the group, by sliding into the right seat of a total stranger's car in who knows what mechanical condition and going 150 mph lap after lap just to help them become a better driver. That's worth a reasonable "paycheck" IMHO.

[getfast]

No, I suppose you are right. That said, my second idea of using a 5-10 minute course clean/worker break doesn't screw anyone over as long as we aren't running out of daylight, which I admit is a possibility for a November event.

 

Like the idea but it'll be tough for FF when we must take a 1hr lunch and (depending on cloud cover) it could be too dark to run by 445p. Any other MA weekend, that's easier to work into the schedule.

 

Although considering what it costs per minute of "hot" track time to put these weekends on, and how many groups we are trying to get maximum track time for, breaks usually aren't how we roll. Track in use nonstop is how we roll, then find a way to adapt everything else around that

[BlkGt3]

I instruct and TT for Jon in FL not for the free entry, but because Jon can't grow the program if he doesn't get DE1 students. I would rather pay and just TT but for now will help instruct. Last weekend I ran 3 out of 6 timed TT sessions, we don't have TT and DE1 sessions back to back, and one partial DE3 session with my student in the passenger seat. Probably less than 45 min of track time. My students don't get shorted.

 

Peter

[alwaysinboost]

Jeff, in one post you said this:

2-If Instructing, our schedule accommodates Instructors who elect to take their track time in the INSTRUCTOR group.

 

and in the next you said this:

do you think it's fair to the other instructors to give special treatment to the TT'ers in the way of assigning ONE student?

 

WHy is it OK to accommodate instructors who don't TT, but not OK to accommodate the ones that do? As if instructing and TT'ing is somehow worth less that just instructing by itself.

 

I can't speak for anyone except me, but I don't think its any instructors intention, whether they TT or not, to be late for their student. You can't do this job just for the cheap track time, you have to get more than that out of it. For me, a big part of it is the sense of accomplishment I get when I can show a green DE1 student some of the things I was taught over the years. Seeing that light go off in their head when they "get it" is part of my reward. The other part of my reward is getting to compete in TT. If I can't do both of those things with some degree of success then I feel like I wasn't productive... and my ride home sucks.

 

The reward NASA gets for my time in the right seat getting that student hooked on the sport is a returning customer. The more time I have to communicate to my student, the better I can do my job. I know this is not news to anyone, however, as a couple people in this thread have already said, even with the best intentions, the way the schedule is made, most of the time it is hard to make it work like that. Shorting TT'ing instructors their sessions just to try and make it work doesn't seem to be the right way to go about it.

 

Obviously you can't please all the people all the time, but we can at least try to make it fair for all involved. I think a good example is here in the Northeast region where they are able to make it work with instructors and TT using the 7 run group format (HPDE 1-4, TT, Lightning & Thunder). Another thing they do in the NE, which I don't think we do in MA region, is allow instructors to run in other run groups as long as they obey the rules of that group. That might make it easier for instructors to swallow missing some of their DE4 session, because they're spending time talking with their DE1 student, if they know they can still go out in DE3 for a few laps.

 

Having said that, I also think the idea Josh proposed about a 5-10 min worker break/clean-up between TT and DE1 couldn't hurt at all. I would be happy getting 3 full TT sessions per day instead of 4 if it meant we could run the whole session.

[getfast]

Another thing they do in the NE, which I don't think we do in MA region, is allow instructors to run in other run groups as long as they obey the rules of that group. That might make it easier for instructors to swallow missing some of their DE4 session, because they're spending time talking with their DE1 student, if they know they can still go out in DE3 for a few laps.

 

From memory, the reason that isn't suggested in mid atlantic is due to possible overcrowding. Specifically because the groups are typically already full or close to it, and there is a point at which a certain number of HPDE cars on track simultaneously is too many.

[f1honda]

Another thing they do in the NE, which I don't think we do in MA region, is allow instructors to run in other run groups as long as they obey the rules of that group. That might make it easier for instructors to swallow missing some of their DE4 session, because they're spending time talking with their DE1 student, if they know they can still go out in DE3 for a few laps.

 

From memory, the reason that isn't suggested in mid atlantic is due to possible overcrowding. Specifically because the groups are typically already full or close to it, and there is a point at which a certain number of HPDE cars on track simultaneously is too many.

 

 

that hasn't been an issue in the northeast the last 4 years i've instructed with them, even on the smaller NJMP lightning course that's only 1.9 miles. and most of the groups are usually sold out. not all instructors are going to go out and run in DE4/3 or DE2 at the same time.

 

i take students out in my car when they ask, but i can't do that if i can only run in TT group.

[kbrew8991]

Scheduling isn't always easy, but, so long as everyone shares a bit of the PITA-ness from time to time thats about as fair as can be expected. Rotate the pain a little.