JSG1901 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Proposed change Use the manufacturer's published accuracy of the scales as a variance factor for weight used for compliance. Reason Race scales can have a published accuracy anywhere from +/-0.1% to =+/-1%. For a typical race with a known 3000lb weight, back to back measurements can range from 2997 to 3003 for the 0.1% accuracy scales to 2970 to 3030 for the 1% accuracy scales. For the more 0.1% accuracy scales, it's not the big a deal, but for the less accurate scales it can be. We've all seen cars have widely varied back to back measurements on the official scales. Proposed wording At the beginning of the race weekend, the series direction will declared the variance percent for weight for the event based on the accuracy of the official scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flink Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Agree. 1% (60lb) variance is crazy. Everyone would get DQ'ed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doclouns Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Agree on the concept, ill leave the %'s up to the smarter people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSG1901 Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 Agree. 1% (60lb) variance is crazy. Everyone would get DQ'ed! Just to be clear, 60 lb is 1% of 6,000 lbs, not 3,000. So, at 1%, you're looking at a 30 lb difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVR127 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPower6er Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Vote "For" this proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Waite Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I vote no, but I've never experienced the variation in results so many complain about and I've been on scales all over. I suggest keeping very good rrecords of fuel level, weight results etc, and test weigh the car on the scales to be used. If there is a question, don't cut it so close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvanhouten Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Agree. The % allowance would be based on the manufacturer's specs of accuracy. Most scales on the market today (Longacre, Intercomp) are certified accurate to 0.1%. For older scales, this is higher. My older set of Intercomp scales is 0.5%. After all the confusion around the scales at East Champs, having a consistent policy should be in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackhaberman Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmwjoon Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I'm okay with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cash7c3 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 For Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7VO-VOM Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Yes, but the % is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobuffs Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Against. The scales at the event are the scales of record. As long as the scales are open for people to weigh themselves during the weeken to figure out where they are...then they can ballast up or down. People think the scales people weigh on at home are absolutely accurate and the weight at the event is wrong...that is the issue. Weigh at the event. Otherwise people will learn the scales and adjust to what they expect the scales at the event to say (including error). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimax Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Agreed. Just like the dyno, weigh at the beginning of the event then ballast up or down as required. Once at impound, you're measured on the same scale that you based your ballast on. Even if you don't make changes to your car between events, run over the scales before Saturday qual and adjust accordingly. I vote no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Agree. 1% (60lb) variance is crazy. Everyone would get DQ'ed! Just to be clear, 60 lb is 1% of 6,000 lbs, not 3,000. So, at 1%, you're looking at a 30 lb difference. Technically...if the vehicle weighs 3,000lbs the 1% variance could be up 30lbs or down 30lbs for a total of 60lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTL Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I vote yes since I feel it's something that should have been practiced already. To further that, I would argue that if the scales are observed to be operating well beyond the published accuracy, they should be declared inaccurate and replaced (or in the spirit of timeliness, a larger percentage allowed until such time they are replaced). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CARVAL Motorsports Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I agree with this proposal, however, it can and will add to the regional directors weekend work load and will be somewhat confusing for the competitor. I am suprised at the variances attached to different scales, and, if that difference could show up between crossing the scales on Saturday morning and getting a completely different weight, all things remaining the same, Saturday afternoon, well, that is spooky. The rated percentage of variance should probably be kept private to the director and scale operator, or it could be utilized by the competitor, but that could cause additional unforseen problems too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Michael G. Posted November 22, 2014 Members Share Posted November 22, 2014 Just a remark from the RD side of the story - I've been in charge of impound at every event from the very early days of GTS here in the NE and unless the scales are broken or malfunctioning, the reading on the same set is consistent through out. It may vary somewhat from the scales you use in your own garage, but repeatable from one day / event to another. Since we switched to the wireless pads, the consistency improved since no pinched wires variable present. If the driver not sure and runs through once prior to the Q session - enough to make adjustments if needed. Not once we had different readings from one day to another. The general CCR allows 4 lb forgiveness on the first run through scales during the weekend - see no issues with that. Michael G. NE GTS Dir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Smith Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 No. I don't see any reason why this needs to be addressed. As a racer, you should be visiting the scales before your first timed session each weekend to see if they're reading differently than the scales you have at home or the scales from the previous race weekend. Then adjust from there. Pretty simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CARVAL Motorsports Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Against. The scales at the event are the scales of record. As long as the scales are open for people to weigh themselves during the weeken to figure out where they are...then they can ballast up or down. People think the scales people weigh on at home are absolutely accurate and the weight at the event is wrong...that is the issue. Weigh at the event. Otherwise people will learn the scales and adjust to what they expect the scales at the event to say (including error). Upon further thought, I must agree with this post. I now vote NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter*g Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I vote no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Smith Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke P. Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Vote no. Weigh in the morning to be safe and you should be good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doclouns Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Against. The scales at the event are the scales of record. As long as the scales are open for people to weigh themselves during the weeken to figure out where they are...then they can ballast up or down. People think the scales people weigh on at home are absolutely accurate and the weight at the event is wrong...that is the issue. Weigh at the event. Otherwise people will learn the scales and adjust to what they expect the scales at the event to say (including error). Totally agree with the above, but aren't we addressing "consistency" more here with this proposal? There is no excuse for not weighing on the scales "of record" at the event but if the manufacturer says there is a variance inherent in the scales, should we allow some leeway? In theory, you could roll on and off 5 times and get different results based on the description from the manufacturer. To me its just a matter of how much leeway then. In practice though, I defer to RD's to say if they see that kind of variance when guys re-weigh more than once back to back. If its not a real issue, then dont change the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbm3 Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 I vote no. I go to scales after the Sat morning warm up session and get a reading for the scales for the weekend and adjust accordingly. To much confusion and work if the Series Director has to start keeping track of % differences on scales. -Scott B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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