JSG1901 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Proposed change The way I read the current rule is that fixed window Cup Car doors are only allowed on factory Cup Cars. My proposed change would allow people building a GTS car to add factory Cup Car doors to a converted street car. For example a 996 C2 or M3 could have Cup Car or M3 GT4 doors. Reason Not every racer has a Cup Car or M3 GT4 budget. However, I believe that full window doors are far safer than window nets and are within the spirit of the GTS rules. The Porsche factory 996/997 Cup Car and BMW factory M3 fixed window doors are available. I do not see why a hp/wt series with an open rule set like the GTS would say a specific door can only be used based on whether or not that part came on that specific car from the factory. Proposed wording 5.5 / Side windows Side windows are permitted in GTS cars under the following conditions: Fixed side windows which were available in a version of the car from the factory (e.g., Porsche Cup Cars, BMW GT4 cars) are allowed without modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Yes but I would make windows available to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach H. Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 ^agreed and remove that they have to be removable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSCoupe Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 No. I think side windows are fine, but they should be easily removed by safety personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I think the vast majority of cars in club level racing do not allow windows on the front seats for safety reasons in the event the driver needs to be pulled out of the car, and the doors are jammed shut. I'm surprised Cup cars are allowed to run with windows in club level racing. That having been said, if ANY GTS car is allowed to race with windows, then others should be as well, and if someone wanted to drive with factory installed windows fastened in place as the factory installed them, then this change should be allowed. I would go a step further and say that ANY car can run with their windows "up" if all factory safety window mechanisms are in place. Having windows permanently installed, or "up" is such an advantage that if Cup or GT4 cars start cleaning up in any given glass, they should be forced to run with civilian windowless door frames etc. All in the interest of fairness. In a GTS type class, where modifications are allowed to the engine and chassis, everyone should be able to have the same mods, factory installed or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Waite Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I vote yes if the wording is very specific that the full window door is the Factory "or like" door as delivered on the production race version of the model car in question. The doors may be after market, but designed as the factory door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flink Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Having windows permanently installed, or "up" is such an advantage that if Cup or GT4 cars start cleaning up in any given glass, they should be forced to run with civilian windowless door frames etc. How big a difference does it make? Perhaps the windows-up cars should take a power/weight penalty to even things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant giere Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911.racer Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Having windows permanently installed, or "up" is such an advantage that if Cup or GT4 cars start cleaning up in any given glass, they should be forced to run with civilian windowless door frames etc. How big a difference does it make? Perhaps the windows-up cars should take a power/weight penalty to even things up. I ran removable windows for a bit in my 996 cup car. Noting discernible. Windows in the rain, however, is exactly 5 seconds a lap faster. Not getting wet and not being miserable in the rain is priceless. I stopped running them. Too much trouble and too hot in the car. I ran the passenger side one for a while longer, but it was not giving me any advantage that I could see. With all of that said, maybe if I had run windows at Nationals my rear window would not have blown out and tried to attack the racer behind me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant giere Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Theres a piece somewhere on Rennlist about cup windows and a debate on the benefits or lack thereof ...Bottom line IIRC was that there was no real advantage on long tracks and it was a lot hotter. When I ran them I know I could see my side view mirror a lot better. I think we should allow for them, let the racer decide. Scott Good them on his 944 so he may know something we I don't ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmwjoon Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Yes, not an issue. No penalty. I ran a window too and couldn't actually see anything on my data that suggested it helped. But same here, it was too much trouble to set up and then it was hot. In addition to that I forgot to latch it once and it flew off at 100 mph Ended up somewhere OFF the track, nobody even saw where it went ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvanhouten Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Against. Leave the rule as is. This seems more restrictive than the current ruleset. As 5.5 states, and GTS car can add side windows as long as they meet the safety criteria listed. This allows any GTS car to run side windows whether they come from the factory or not. Furthermore, I would argue if the "factory" side windows are not removable "instantaneously" as listed in 5.5, the then the factory windows would need to be modified to do so, or at least with the windows up, you must be able to meet the exit criteria through the window. We are an amateur series with "amateur"/volunteer corner workers and thus the extraction time should be made as short as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cash7c3 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Against. Leave the rule as is. This seems more restrictive than the current ruleset. As 5.5 states, and GTS car can add side windows as long as they meet the safety criteria listed. This allows any GTS car to run side windows whether they come from the factory or not. Furthermore, I would argue if the "factory" side windows are not removable "instantaneously" as listed in 5.5, the then the factory windows would need to be modified to do so, or at least with the windows up, you must be able to meet the exit criteria through the window. We are an amateur series with "amateur"/volunteer corner workers and thus the extraction time should be made as short as possible. agreed. against Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7VO-VOM Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Yes to allowing factory (or aftermarket replicas) for cars on which they were available. Yes but I would make windows available to everyone. I agree to this as well, but could see it being a liability issue since this is not common in the US, even though it is the standard outside the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTL Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I think the proposed rule modification (note that it's a proposed modification of an existing rule, & what i'm getting at is I think many of the responses here are not recognizing that?) is narrowly focused and could be dealt with independently via the tech inspection process- ask for consideration/waiver. And in all honesty is the scrutineer going to discover your 911 or BMW isn't a factory Cup or GT4 and fail you because the rules technically say you have to modify the factory race car windows if your ride is not a factory race car? Or is this a fear of a competitor potentially recognizing someone is not following the rule to the letter and filing a protest to get that someone DQ'd? Seems pretty petty IMO if that were the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CARVAL Motorsports Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I think that the standing rule does a good job of including the factory available setup for those that choose to run a factory racecar. I think beyond that point, the rule should remain as is, primarily based on safety. I would really appreciate a qualified safety workers opinion on having non-quick removable windows applied to any car on track. Against a change here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CARVAL Motorsports Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I think that the standing rule does a good job of including the factory available setup for those that choose to run a factory racecar. I think beyond that point, the rule should remain as is, primarily based on safety. I would really appreciate a qualified safety workers opinion on having non-quick removable windows applied to any car on track. Against a change here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke P. Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Keep as is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbm3 Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Leave as currently written -Scott B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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