Interested in GLs region American Iron car count+ noob intro

[SlowFRC]

Hello all, I just joined the forum hoping to learn more about the American Iron class, particularly in the Great Lakes region. I'd really just like to know the average car count the class typically sees lately. Ill be building my 1995 Z28 hopefully for the 2016 season.

 

Just to potentially start conversation, Ill elaborate a little on myself, my background, and the car.

 

I have been around road racing almost my whole life. I was lucky enough to race go karts (yamaha can) for a few years as a kid(10-12 years old). When I wasnt on the track I was watching. Finally got into autocross around 18-19 years old, and have been autocrossing and doing various HPDEs for about 3-4 years. Autocross is awesome, it has definitely taught me how my car reacts in different situations, car setup, and kept my skills sharp. HPDEs have been great, Im now ready for the next step in my hobby.

 

My goal for this year would be to obtain my comptetition license and maybe get a TT session in. Does anyone have any tips on what to expect during evaluation?

 

As for the camaro, it was my first car, and Ive enjoyed it as a fun street car in many configurations, the latest plan being a forged 6.0l lq9, h/c/i/e, strano springs and bars, koni yellows, watts link, 315s square, good alignment, relocated rear LCAs, 4 piston brembos on the front with 13" rotors. The engine and trans are currently out for rebuilds, which makes it a perfect time to strip the interior and build a cage, and put the 6.0l back together with stock parts to make the power/weight ratio.

 

If any fellow AI 4th gen owners have any tips on legal seats that would be awesome too. I have read the rules, but needed clarification on the side windows, both driver and passenger are to be removed? Also on the cage construction, are bars from the main hoop extending to the A pillers a must? And is there a minimum of two door bars per side?

 

I will make it to a few NASA events at mid ohio and nearby this year for HPDE and will pay close attention to the AI cars.

 

Heres my junk

 

 

http://youtu.be/t2qMVZ2O3LE

 

 

Managed to get 2nd place in great lakes region NASA-X A class last year, second to my brother. I dont really care for scca national autox events, 3 minutes seat time for +$300, no thanks.

 

Would love to have link to videos of races! Ive scanned most of this forum for videos and have ran out.

Thanks to all for any suggestions.

[2010 mustang]

As far as AI car counts, at the smaller tracks, it can be 5 AI cars, or for the crossover events with the Midwest, there can be 10+. It's probably one of the bigger AI fields IMO

[Sidney]

Shelve the 6.0L, find a stock LS/LT, and build the cage to CMC specs. The 4th gen can be Nationally competitive in CMC at a fraction of the cost that AI will run you. Get your license and cut your teeth racing w2w in CMC. If you've still got the appetite and cash flow...move on up to AI.

 

Sidney (Been there...done that)

[Grizlbits]

The 4th gen can be Nationally competitive in CMC at a fraction of the cost that AI will run you.

 

I guess 97/100 is a fraction. Or you can go faster and race AI instead of racing a car that is barely faster than a Miata (CMC). You do NOT need to spend $75k to be competitive in AI. CMC cars break a lot of crap also. Its racing. TJ Bain is the guy you want to talk to. He can make your car fast for not much more than the cost of a CMC.

[SlowFRC]

I like the 6.0l idea because its 100% fresh and the forged pistons and rods add a little confidence. Definitely wont convert it back to lt1. Im pretty confident in my understanding of race craft and the art of wheel to wheel racing (i know karts arent cars but theyre a great trainer). I figure with the amount of aftermarket parts on the car it might be counter productive to race the cmc class.

I think I might just give it a shot and see where I end up, and work from there. I know spring rates will need changed, Maybe I wont have the best dampers compared to some other cars. Im not concerned with breaking things, I definitely know thats a part of racing. I do all of my own work on the cars as well (minus transmission rebuilds) so thats a little easier on the wallet.

[Mystic_Cobra]

Once the car is running and safe, you can get seat time in AI (or AIX depending on mods) without making a bunch of change to the car and then decide if you want to go up or down a class later. Hope to see you out there soon!

[D Algozine]

The 4th gen can be Nationally competitive in CMC at a fraction of the cost that AI will run you.

 

I guess 97/100 is a fraction. Or you can go faster and race AI instead of racing a car that is barely faster than a Miata (CMC). You do NOT need to spend $75k to be competitive in AI. CMC cars break a lot of crap also. Its racing. TJ Bain is the guy you want to talk to. He can make your car fast for not much more than the cost of a CMC.

 

I've raced an F body in both AI and CMC. To be competitive in an F body in AI now, you need to make a far amount of modifications, but that is the case of nearly all the cars in AI. And cost is relative. It depends on how far you want to go, and what mods/fabrication you can perform yourself. It can, and has been done cost effectively, but that is not the norm. I would do my research first before pulling the trigger on a race class.

I can see both sides of the two statements made above..............., to each his own. There are many F body racers in Great Lakes and Midwest region that are, or have been in both CMC and AI. I would get intimately familiar with the cars and racers from both classes before making a decision, or building your car. As it is winter and no racing, contact race directors from both regions, in both race classes and ask a lot of questions. Also go to these sites for more info: http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/ and here http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/

Feel free to Personal Mess me if you like.

[Sidney]

The 4th gen can be Nationally competitive in CMC at a fraction of the cost that AI will run you.

 

I guess 97/100 is a fraction. Or you can go faster and race AI instead of racing a car that is barely faster than a Miata (CMC). You do NOT need to spend $75k to be competitive in AI. CMC cars break a lot of crap also. Its racing. TJ Bain is the guy you want to talk to. He can make your car fast for not much more than the cost of a CMC.

 

 

Chris,

 

I'm calling BS on everything you just said and you know I'm right. This guy deserves to hear the true costs necessary to put a 4th gen on the CMC or AI National podium. TJ does not run a 4th gen. He needs to talk to Derek Wright, Bob Denton, or Kent Owens. Anyone put a 4th gen on the National podium in AI?...you can help him there.

 

Done here,

 

Sidney

[SlowFRC]

I think Im aware of what it takes for AIX, I've seen the fast laps on youtube lol, and have heard it takes 1000rwhp, but I did come here to learn more about what it takes in AI. Ive probably reached the full potential of bolt ons on the car suspension wise (with the exclusion of hiem joints in place of poly bushings, and tubular front control arms). I also wonder how big the advantage is of cars with altered wheelbases in AI.

[SNAKBITN]

If your building a 4th gen call Will Stukas.His car is probably the fastest 4th gen around and with a longer wheel base.It's currently for sale on racingjunk.It would be cheaper to buy his than build yours.

[SlowFRC]

Cmc is still not out of the question however im still deciding, but I have time

[D Algozine]

Some lap times from last year at Great Lakes / Midwest events - typical tracks

Even if you looked at track records, I pretty sure you would find the same difference in lap times.

I'm sure there is much more of a spread at Road America, but not a typical track

 

Gingerman - June 2014 - Top 2 finishers race 3

Miata 1:50.4

Miata 1:50.5

 

CMC 1:47.1

CMC 1:46.1

 

AI 1:44.0

AI 1.43.9

 

Autobahn - Sept 2014 - Top 2 finishers race 3

Miata 1:39.8

Miata 1:39.9

 

CMC 1:37.6

CMC 1:38.3

 

AI 1:35.1

AI 1:35.9

[Grizlbits]

So what are you saying Dave? Some Miatas at Autobahn are faster than some mid pack CMC cars?

 

Buying a car will *ALMOST* always cost you half as much as building it yourself. Just make sure it has a good cage. Cages are a PITA to fix, the rest of the car is not so bad to fix - unless it has frame / pickup point damage.

[D Algozine]

So what are you saying Dave? Some Miatas at Autobahn are faster than some mid pack CMC cars?

 

Buying a car will *ALMOST* always cost you half as much as building it yourself. Just make sure it has a good cage. Cages are a PITA to fix, the rest of the car is not so bad to fix - unless it has frame / pickup point damage.

 

I think there is information that can be pulled from the times I listed,.........but just like most raw data, each individual can look at it however they want, and put their own spin on it, as they see fit to come to their own conclusions. But in doing so, another factor to consider is the cost to buy, or built a competitive car in any class.....and specifically these three classes listed. Edit: I would also consider the cost to maintain

 

I think most would agree, that buying an existing car is likely less expensive then building, as you listed, as long as certain important items are built properly. Currently there are some spectacular deals on F body AI / CMC cars. A couple are listed here http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/ and other places.

[nape]

Can a 4th gen with a 6.0L be competitive in AI? Sure, given enough time, money, and talent.

 

Given your starting point, I'd put your car back together and sell it. Once that happens, buy Will Stukas's car or Allen Thornton's car (5.3L, Super T10, 3-link, 4th gens). Both of those guys are from GA and moving on to another class. By doing that, you'll be 500-2000 hours and $10,000-30,000 ahead.

 

If you want to keep "your car" because it has sentimental value, don't turn it into a race car. I've been running AI for 9 years and so far I'm up to 4 noses, 4 fenders, two doors, both quarters are wrinkled, both rockers are taco'd, frame horns are bent, floor pan is cracked, core support was bent bad enough to be cut out, roof is wrinkled, and it could use a new rear bumper. Basically, shit happens and it could come back in a bushel basket, so just know that going in. Other than that, it's the most fun I've ever had with clothes on.

 

If you have any more questions, just keep asking.

[wstukas]

4th gens can absolutely be nationally competitive in AI, for under $75k. Be prepared to do the work though! I had the fast lap at our East Coast Champs this year and was out front leading the championship race when a mechanical forced me to retire. Bummer.

 

You cannot, however, build a nationally front running 4th gen with off the shelf parts. The suspension geometry just isn't there. It requires a complete redesign of the rear suspension, and in my opinion the front too. Altered wheelbase is not required, but I'll always welcome a 2% rearward weight bias shift.

 

There's no bolt on brake kits that can bring the F body to the braking level of the s197 either. Again, mostly due to the poor front and rear suspension geometry (primarily anti-dive and anti-lift).

 

Give me a call, I'll make you a deal on my car you can't refuse! I'm basically willing to sell the whole car for what my brakes would cost if you bought them new!

 

http://classifieds.racerconnect.com/details.php?id=455

[SlowFRC]

Thats really interesting due to it being SLA style suspension, I would assume it would be okay. Just in my experience Ive been competitive or equal to modified c5 corvettes in the 4th gens in autocross, but I understand comparing autocross to road racing may be considered apples to oranges. I would like to learn more on what modifications would be required to the front suspension though. Ive also read that torque arms help resist dive while braking but I would like to also learn why some choose a 3 link rear suspension instead.

[nape]

Thats really interesting due to it being SLA style suspension, I would assume it would be okay. Just in my experience Ive been competitive or equal to modified c5 corvettes in the 4th gens in autocross, but I understand comparing autocross to road racing may be considered apples to oranges. I would like to learn more on what modifications would be required to the front suspension though. Ive also read that torque arms help resist dive while braking but I would like to also learn why some choose a 3 link rear suspension instead.

 

In stock classes, the factory SLA is easier to drive than a strut suspension, but it was made with the street in mind. There are many ways it could be better for racing. Ditch the odd ball upper arm and spindle and convert to circle track parts. That has a dual benefit of getting rid of the stock hubs that end up being a frequent consumable. No one makes a bolt on suspension, so you need to design it from scratch. You can do pretty well on stock style stuff, but be prepared to go through a lot of hubs and deal with a long brake pedal more often.

 

Stock style torque arm is junk if you can do a 3-link or a decoupled torque arm. Stock torque arm ends up giving brake hop at anything resembling usable braking force, can't tune the antisquat vs. braking length, puts all the force through the tailshaft housing of the trans or a cross member, stronger torque arms weigh similar to an Abrams tank with the only benefit being less deflection, and I could go on.

 

Also, this is going to come off as harsh, but if you were competitive with C5s in a 4th gen with your prep level, the competition isn't that strong. It doesn't matter if it's auto-x or road courses, the C5 chassis is should dominate.

 

I love AI as a class, but you have to either be a chassis engineer or want to be a chassis engineer to make a GM product competitive at a National level event. S197 chassis have the benefit of Ford doing a lot of the race R&D for you. On top of that, there are aftermarket companies offering better options than Ford. If this isn't something that appeals to you, CMC may be a better choice. Any GM product will require a lot of re-engineering to be fast. There isn't one factory piece of suspension/geometry on the rear of my car and the front needs a re-design as Will suggested.

 

Can you do it on a budget? Sure, but you better be ready to live it. The commitment is huge.

[SlowFRC]

I understand that, thanks for the insight it really helps a lot. That is something that appeals to me, although I will need to look into the specifics. Thanks to everyone for the info as well.