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Magus2727

Newbie trying to understand when to take more points

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Magus2727

I have a 2001 Ford Focus with a bit of work done to it. I participated in my HPDE 1 event on Saturday but my goal is to eventually get into TT and PT style of racing with this car. I am trying to see in my HPDE events if I am anywhere close to competitive in time with others in the potential class I am looking at.

 

I am looking at being in TTE (a bump up of 2 classes) using the spread sheet but I have a few questions if points need to apply.

 

1. I have 4.06 final drive gear in my transmission which is Non-BTM. Do I take a 7 point hit on that in D1? or since its only a final drive that does not apply? Edit: In reviewing other posts in this forum it looks like the change in final drive does not add points. If I was to add a LSD (now is an open diff.) it would be only +3 points...

 

2. Trying to understand the wording for E22. I have front camber plates (Non-BTM) that are all metal heim joint type center and front control arms (Non-BTM) with heim joint. Do I take 3 points for this in E22 since I already am taking points in E7? Also does this also count as alteration of ball joints/drive angles in E16 to take more points?

 

3. I have Camber Bolts that replace the factory bolt and allow for 1 degree of adjustment in the rear, would this also fall under points in E16 or some other category if any?

 

4. Aerodynamics... I have an aftermarket front bumper, rear bumper, and side skirts. These were installed by the previous owner and don't have any aero intentional built into the deisgn (Cervinis front bumper, don't know who makes the side skirts and rear bumper but are Non-BTM). Do I take points on these for any of the Aerodynamic modifications?

 

Thanks for any help you can provide. I am seeing how many points I might be able to allocate to tires and keep me in the TTE class.

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ILIKETODRIVE

1. Correct. Final Drive ratio is free per I.d.4) Final drive ratio modification and adding an LSD where there was no LSD is +3.

2. Not sure what you're asking about...E22 might apply (need pics to know what you're talking about) but E7 is strictly for adding/replacing/modifying/removing front and/or rear sway bars...

3. This sounds like it is free per I.e.1) Simple camber, caster, and toe adjustment by any method that does not alter suspension mounting point...etc...

4. Yes. All the points. Go get factory OEM unmodified front/rear bumpers and side skirts. *thumbs up*

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Magus2727

For # 2... I am using http://specfocus.drivenasa.com/LCPlates.htm they say they are spec focus legal, not sure if that applies to TT classing or not. It talks about Metallic replacement suspension bushings (Heim joints). The change to an aftermarket front control arm changes the standard ball joint to a HEIM joint with bolt. So this would be considered a metallic replacement?

 

Also the BTM caster plate has a rubber bushing and is now a Heim joint. Is that what this is saying as a metallic replacement suspension bushing?

 

Will work on getting OEM bumpers for TT. I have a follow up question on OEM or Non-BTM on this but need to reference some more stuff before I ask.

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Magus2727

ok, so here is my follow up question to the Aerodynamics portion:

 

G.1 Add, replace, or modify front fascia and/or air dam +3 (except as provided for in I.c.3), I.f.3),

I.h.14) of the No-Points Modification list)...

 

There is no mention of BTM. The 2001 Ford Focus I have is a 16V 2.0 L which starts out at TTG** so I have the initial 14 point assessment. There were a # of trim levels and special editions that would still fall under the OEM for '00-'04. Would ANY OEM front bumper / fascia work or does it have to be BTM?

 

Same thing for the rear bumper: Replace or modify BTM rear diffuser, rear bumper cover, or rear “fascia” (note: additional

points must be assessed for any vertical panels incorporated into a rear diffuser that are

greater than five inches in height---G. below) +1 This at least indicates BTM rear diffuser I am guessing this sentence is also to read Replace or Modify BTM rear bumper cover, or Replace or Modify BTM rear "fascia". the Focus my model year only really had one kind of rear bumper so no problems there just want to make sure I am reading it correctly.

 

It does look like I can cut two holes in the front bumper as long as they only are for duct work to cool brakes with no points. Under h.14 for the no-point assessments for light removal I am guessing if there are OEM fog lights that you want to remove and use for brake cooling that would also work?

 

Another question not with Aerodynamics but with my engine rebuild. I went with a "larger" piston (85.5mm requiring a 0.02677" Over bore but on only 4 cyl and a shaving of the head brings me within the 1.49% still) with lower compression I still fall within the less than 0.50 increase in compression when down so don't have to worry about points there. but in reading the no-point modification listed I saw this: If forged internals used are lighter than the BTM

internals, then Dyno Re-classing (Section 8.4) should be used to prevent disqualification. I do not have weight measurements but in using forged pistons and rods my weight is likely less... however I know I am still well within the max power to weight ratio for the class. the dyno re-class is only if you have made a significant change of power using light weight components right?

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Mike W.

Under Section 8.1.1 of the TT Rules.

 

Unless otherwise specified in the base class listing, a vehicle’s U.S. domestic market base trim model (BTM), without factory upgrades or options, will be used for purposes of base classing and Modification Points assessment.

 

You need to read all of H.14

14) Headlamps, headlight covers, and fog lights may all be removed, and the holes may be

covered with material that replicates the shape of the BTM light/cover, leaving the shape of

the BTM fascia intact. Uncovered holes may be used for brake ducts. Any hole providing

improved intake air to the engine will be assessed one (1) point under C.4).

 

If you used lighter weight rods and pistons then you need to dyno reclass, it doesn't matter if you are making more power or not.

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ILIKETODRIVE
For # 2... I am using http://specfocus.drivenasa.com/LCPlates.htm they say they are spec focus legal, not sure if that applies to TT classing or not.

 

Spec Focus does not cross over to TT and vice-versa.

 

How I see those and how I read this:

{22) Metallic and/or spherical-design replacement suspension bushings +3 (except for pillow ball camber plate joints}

 

...is that those are a free point mod under:

I.e.1) Simple camber, caster, and toe adjustment by any method that does not alter suspension mounting points (unless the modification used is otherwise assessed points above--such as control arm, ball joint, and relocated mounting point modifications). Slotting of the BTM bolt holes and removal of material from the top surface of the BTM strut/shock tower to the extent necessary to allow simple camber/caster adjustment is permitted.). Bolt on camber/caster plates are not assessed points.

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Magus2727
Under Section 8.1.1 of the TT Rules.

 

Unless otherwise specified in the base class listing, a vehicle’s U.S. domestic market base trim model (BTM), without factory upgrades or options, will be used for purposes of base classing and Modification Points assessment.

 

You need to read all of H.14

14) Headlamps, headlight covers, and fog lights may all be removed, and the holes may be

covered with material that replicates the shape of the BTM light/cover, leaving the shape of

the BTM fascia intact. Uncovered holes may be used for brake ducts. Any hole providing

improved intake air to the engine will be assessed one (1) point under C.4).

 

If you used lighter weight rods and pistons then you need to dyno reclass, it doesn't matter if you are making more power or not.

 

Not sure how I completely missed that wording. I think I just read it to quick and read holes must be covered up. I ask about BTM because even though 8.1.1. says this they still call out non-BTM everywhere. How does a dyno reclass work? I need to read up on that. Would it just change my base class from say TTG** with something else and I still take all my points? or do i no longer take engine change points in assessment?

 

For # 2... I am using http://specfocus.drivenasa.com/LCPlates.htm they say they are spec focus legal, not sure if that applies to TT classing or not.

 

Spec Focus does not cross over to TT and vice-versa.

 

How I see those and how I read this:

{22) Metallic and/or spherical-design replacement suspension bushings +3 (except for pillow ball camber plate joints}

 

...is that those are a free point mod under:

I.e.1) Simple camber, caster, and toe adjustment by any method that does not alter suspension mounting points (unless the modification used is otherwise assessed points above--such as control arm, ball joint, and relocated mounting point modifications). Slotting of the BTM bolt holes and removal of material from the top surface of the BTM strut/shock tower to the extent necessary to allow simple camber/caster adjustment is permitted.). Bolt on camber/caster plates are not assessed points.

 

That is how I read it for the camber plates as well thank you. But it sounds like my HEIM joints for the control arm to knuckle. it was a standard ball joint but is now a Heim joint. I am taking the points for changed front control arm, but would the Heim joints on the control arm still trigger this extra +3 points.

 

Thank you all for the help and guidance.

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Mike W.

 

Not sure how I completely missed that wording. I think I just read it to quick and read holes must be covered up. I ask about BTM because even though 8.1.1. says this they still call out non-BTM everywhere. How does a dyno reclass work? I need to read up on that. Would it just change my base class from say TTG** with something else and I still take all my points? or do i no longer take engine change points in assessment?

Section 8.4 of the TT rules spells out the dyno reclass procedure. Your base class may change and you will still have to take points for all mods except engine and weight reduction.

 

The competitor will then complete the TT Car Classification Form, but will not assess any points for Section 8.3.B (Weight Reduction) or 8.3.C (Engine).

 

First you need to get a dyno test to see where you are on horsepower.

https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/293/ttdynoform.pdf

 

Then you need to follow the procedure in the rules under Section 8.4.2 Re-class Request Procedure.

 

You can basically request a new base class (submit HP and Weight) or you can request a new competition weight (submit HP and new desired base class).

 

I would recommend going with at least a TTF base class because the base tire size for G is 195 and the base tire size for F is 215. If you plan on running TTE, then you can even try to get a TTE base class because the base tire is a 235, so if you run a 205 tire you can actually get 7 points back for other mods. It all depends on your goals and your current HP and weight.

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Magus2727

That is interesting. Right now I am running a 225 tire and engine mods I am taking 15 points and running a 225 gives me 8 points back. so a dyno reclass to TTF or TTE I would loose the 15 points for engine modifications... This does mean any time I change something though I would need a dyno reclass? or just at least prove in inspection / impound that my dyno #'s are still correct.

 

Then if in TTE I would get a 8 point for running a 225 tire vs a 235. And I would loose the 14 points from the double asterisks. so I would get back basically 37 points. I am not sure if that helps though....

 

I am sitting at 62 points with taking the E22 +3 points (still un clear if I need this). to stay in TTE I would need to loose 3 points which can be done somewhere. So say I am at 59 points under TTG**. I change to TTE and subtract the 37 points from 59 and puts me at 22. this is 3 points above the threshold so would push me up into TTD.

 

If I base class for TTF then I have 39 points to get me up into TTE. a re-class to TTF appears to make the most sense to me. What kind of guides do they use or is it a look at just HP / Weight ratios for base classing?

 

I have done next to no weight reduction at this point so am likely sitting at stock weight still (just moved weight around).

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Mike W.

Please list out how your points are currently being used, that way we can figure out possible options much easier.

 

Once you dyno reclass, the must be compliant with the reclass at all times. If you increase horsepower above your dyno reclass or remove weight then you must get a new dyno reclass.

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Magus2727

TO best answer this I think the best way is to list my mods and then what points I think they are taking.

 

This is for my current car assuming I am putting BTM front and rear bumpers and side skirts back on the car for TT.

 

Have ** so 14 points off the start for TTG classing.

 

Tires:

Running a 225/45R17 BFG Rival tire. +2 for Tire +7 for width over 195. (Want to run a R1, or Z214 tire for TT)....

Total: 9

 

Weight Reduction:

Unknown, have made no attempts to weight reduction.

 

Engine:

Computer Tune. no points.

Cold Air intake replacing OEM/BTM airbox with open style conical filter (i.e. short air ram w/ heat shield) +1

Non-BTM Throttle body (aftermarket 65mm) +2

Intake Manifold from model year 2000 (is BTM but was a different design than used on 2001) port matched on TB face +1 4cyl

Engine displacement calculated (not physically measured) to be 1.2% increase due to 0.026" oversized pistons built with forged internals (pistons and rods). no points

Two adjustable Non-BTM Cam gears +6 (still currently stock cams but looking at getting new cams, already taking the point hit)

Compression ratio lowered to 9.3 so no points.

Non-BTM Exhaust Header, CAT, and exhaust piping and muffler +5

I also have upgraded valve springs and a shaved head (0.020") but are no point additions.

Total: 15

 

Drivetrain:

Final drive gear change to 4.06 gears. no points

Aluminum light weight flywheel. no points

upgraded clutch. no points

Total: 0

 

Suspension:

Koni (Non-BTM) front struts Koni (Non-BTM) rear shocks E3 +3

Koni (Non-BTM) Springs E5 +2

Eibach front and rear sway-bars (Non-BTM), MOOG front sway-bar links, poly bushings E7 +2

Tubular front control arms using HEIM joints to replace ball joints E9 +4

Replacement of control arm ball joint with HEIM joint from above E22 +3

Full poly bushings in front suspension and motor mounts. no points

strut tower braces front and rear. no points.

rear camber bolts. no points.

front camber plates (with HEIM joint). no points.

upgraded tie rods and tie rod ends to 2005 model year. no points?

Upgraded to SVT Focus Knuckle (mounting points of struts and tie rods are the same). no points

Total: 14

 

Brakes/Chassis:

Upgraded front brakes to SVT brakes (Non-BTM), converted rear drums to rear disk (SVT, and Non-BTM) +2

Wheel offset and camber still leaves track width within 4" of OEM/BTM width. no points

Slotted rotors and performance brake pads (Hawk HPS), w/ SS lines. no points.

Total: 2

 

Aerodynamics:

Removing front, rear, and side skirts and will replace with BTM. no points

Total: 0

 

Roll Cages:

No Roll Cage. no points

Total: 0

 

14 + 9 + 15+ 14 + 2 = 54. But I realize I need sticker tires so trying to run the mentioned tires would put me at 17 points for tires vs 9 putting me at 62 currently with those tires.

 

Also if it helps, I have not been on a dyno with my car but with comparative mods from others I know who have been on a dyno the flywheel HP is likely changed from around 130whp OEM to about 150-160.

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ILIKETODRIVE

Go for TTF reclass. Give Greg G your current max whp and the fact that you would like a TTF reclass and he can tell you your new minimum weight you need to be over.

 

Tires will then be +3 (+2 compound, +1 size)

Suspension still +14

Brakes/chassis still +2

 

BOOM +19

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Mike W.

Thanks.

These two things need to be investigated further, there must have been a reason for the change.

upgraded tie rods and tie rod ends to 2005 model year. no points?

Upgraded to SVT Focus Knuckle (mounting points of struts and tie rods are the same). no points

 

If the tie rods change the bump steering then they will be points.

 

I would definitely shoot for a TTF dyno reclass but depending on your fwhp you might end up with a TTF* but you will still be ahead on points.

 

TTF Base Class

225 width tire +1

BFG R1 +10

Suspension (assuming no other points) +14

Brakes +2

Total +27 (which leaves 12 points to remain in TTE)

 

So, even if you get a new base class of TTF* you will still have 5 points to play with and remain in TTE.

 

Just to give you an idea, one of my old dyno reclasses for 4 door front wheel drive car was 136fwhp at 2760lbs for a base class PTF/TTF. So, it sounds like your car might be in the similar fwhp range but is probably going to be lighter, so I would bet that you end up with a TTF* reclass if you go that route.

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Magus2727
Thanks.

These two things need to be investigated further, there must have been a reason for the change.

upgraded tie rods and tie rod ends to 2005 model year. no points?

Upgraded to SVT Focus Knuckle (mounting points of struts and tie rods are the same). no points

 

If the tie rods change the bump steering then they will be points.

 

Thanks for the input every one has provided.

 

For the tire rods and tie rod ends, they are the same length and same type of ball joint but the 2005+ model years they went with a larger Outside diameter for the Tie Rod so a new end also needed to be used for a larger thread. rack is the same, length is the same, wheel lock to lock is the same, the same angles are preserved. Only change is a larger diameter rod and a end that has a larger diameter thread.

 

For the SVT focus knuckle it is required to mount the larger caliper. I don think the caliper is actually any larger (I think same piston size) but the rotor is larger. So the mounting points on the knuckle for the caliper are different. Same connection points for control arm, strut, and tie rod. Same material as BTM. uses same attaching hardware as BTM. Swaybar attaches to a tab on the strut, so no change in swaybar mounting points either.

 

I do want to go with a sticker tire so will be getting more points. Out of the options for the +10 point tires are there any that perform a bit better for FWD type cars than others?

 

Curb weight is listed at 2598 lbs. I weigh about 180lbs on a bad day....2778 Lbs. so fairly close to the same. I moved the battery to the back which shifted some weight to the back but did add a bit in power cables. larger brakes up front, but removed rear drums for disks... I still have all stock interior so once I get a roll cage put in, race seat, and gut it for TT the weight may change (but weight of cage may off set it back to 2770ish. removal of heater core, and A/C might get me to 2700 lbs.

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Mike W.

We used to run 225 R6 Hoosiers, they were fast but would usually only last a weekend in TT or maybe 3 races in PT. A 2800lb fwd car is hard on the front tires and our car is also very camber limited. Last year, we switched to running the Maxxis RC-1 and actually went down in size to a 205 on a 8" wide rim. Maxxis has a great contingency program (3 in class both 1st and 2nd get one tire) and the tires last way longer an R6 Hoosier. We have been getting over 50 heat cycles on the front tires before they are done. The Maxxis tires are anywhere from 2-5 seconds slower than a Hoosier (track dependent) but they are also cheaper and only a 6 point tire. I haven't run the BFG R1 since 2008 and that was before the car was fully developed.

 

For the cost, it would be worth it to try a set of Maxxis tires on your car.

 

What region(s) do you run in?

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Magus2727

I am in the Utah Region. So am mostly expecting to be out at Miller Motorsports Park. the trick is finding a tire. I have a weird bolt pattern so finding much anything other than a 7" wide wheel is hard with the back spacing I need. 4x108 bolt pattern. So I am running a 225/45R17 right now.

 

For my HPDE1 driving I timed my self at 2:40 fairly consistent with 1 lap or two with a 2:37. obviously more track time and better lines will help me improve also. those in TTE were running a 2:10 to a 2:32 for best lap. a Spec Miata has ran the course in a 2:18 (but think that's the best lap a spec has ever done on the outer track). So I am a ways away from first but second for the last weekend was around a 2:20 if I recall so I need to improve 20 seconds a lap with driving experience and better tires than the Rival. so a 2-5 seconds may be worth the price. but its also finding it in sizes that fit my wheels.

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Magus2727

 

the 225/45R17 is a common size, but if I wanted to go wider and use the 5 points as mentioned to play with finding a 8" or 9" wide wheel in the 4x108 bolt pattern is hard. I could run spacers and do a bolt pattern conversion but them I think I would also be in trouble with 4" wider track width than BTM and take points for that.

 

while I think I know the answer but track width is from out side edge to outside edge of wheel or of tire?

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ILIKETODRIVE
Magus2727

 

Thanks for the link. I don't think its worth the $1k in wheels to get another 1/2 inch out. I was running a 225/50 on a 6" wide wheel. I do know people are able to put a 235 or 245 on a 7" wide wheel but then you have a lot of tire bulge and there are issues with response and feel at that point and the size you go up does not = the amount extra you have on the ground.

 

Is there any rule or requirement saying you cant put a 245 on a 7" wide tire? I know there is inspections and would they flag that as dangerous but if you can physically put a tire on a wheel and get and keep a bed through racing does it matter that its outside the recommended wheel width for mounting?

 

I would like to go to a 9" wide and run a 245/40 as that appears to be another popular size. I can run 16" wheels also but to clear brakes cant go smaller.

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Magus2727

As usual I just need to read a bit more: "measured from the inside of one tire to the outside of the opposite tire at ground level - averaging the measurements in front of and behind the contact patch to negate the effect of toe"

 

So lets say I get a configuration that keeps the inside of one tire (Tire and not the wheel right?) to stay at the same place I can push out the outside 4" beyond BTM. this means from outside to outside you could go as wide as 8" wider right?

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ILIKETODRIVE

Yes to a 245 on a 7" wheel BUT it's FAR from optimal.

 

225/50 on a 6" wheel =

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Magus2727
Yes to a 245 on a 7" wheel BUT it's FAR from optimal.

 

225/50 on a 6" wheel =

 

Tire manufactures list a 225/50 as a mountable tire on a 6" wide wheel... that is the minimum and far from ideal obviously but its more rubber....

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ILIKETODRIVE
Tire manufactures list a 225/50 as a mountable tire on a 6" wide wheel... that is the minimum and far from ideal obviously but its more rubber....

 

Oh I know. I've seen it on an Integra Type-R autocrossing.

 

It's to see.

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Z06phile
Tire manufactures list a 225/50 as a mountable tire on a 6" wide wheel... that is the minimum and far from ideal obviously but its more rubber....

 

Oh I know. I've seen it on an Integra Type-R autocrossing.

 

It's to see.

 

 

Some were running 275s at one point

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