HPDE to TT - B16 CRX & Other Hondas

[ZeroForceMember]

Hello all, I'm looking for some help regarding some questions after thumbing through the TT rules. I have a mound of Honda parts collected from past projects and a few friends getting married/having children/no longer pouring money into 20+ year old Japanese cars. My plan is to select a vehicle that will allow me to participate in Solo AX events where classing is unimportant to me, while simultaneously progressing through HPDE. The final goal would be to participate in TT after progressing through HPDE (and possibly various Solo classes) as my skill increases and modifications are added to the vehicle.

 

I picked up a '88 CRX Si off of Craigslist awhile ago for a good price, and after having given it a good once over after using it as DD for a few months, it's a great candidate for my HPDE project. But after having looked deeper into the rules of TT and Solo, I feel the car may be great for HPDE, but lacking in the other programs after an engine swap. So my questions will relate to classing the following cars in NASA TT: TTE B16 CRX, TTD DC2 Integra Type R, TTD DC2 Integra RS, TTD EG Civic Hatch.

 

TTE EF CRX Si with B16 DOHC VTEC Swap

In the Base Classifications section of the rules there is a CRX 1.6L DOHC VTEC listed with a min. comp. weight of 2436 for TTE. There is no further description of this base classification anywhere else in the rules or addendums on the website. Could someone please clarify what will be included as BTM for this base class and weight? LSD? What gearing? Which B16 blocks/heads? Any other information that may be helpful here would be great, as I'm trying to decide whether to keep the CRX for this purpose or sell it while I'm ahead and look into a different chassis.

 

TTD DC2 Integra Type R

In the Base Classifications section of the rules there is a Integra Type R listed with a min. comp. weight of 2600 for TTD. I would like some clarification regarding this base class and BTM parts. If I read section 8.5 of the rules correctly, a DC2 ITR will NOT be assessed for parts like: OEM wing, OEM LSD, etc. Therefore, if one was to take a stock ITR with a min. comp. weight of 2600 lbs, and run 205mm Hoosier A7s the math would be: -7 pts for 205s in TTD, +22 pts for A7s, = 15 points left while remaining in TTD.

 

TTD DC2 Integra RS with B18C(X) DOHC VTEC Swap

I don't see how any other trim on an Integra with a B18C/C1/C5, altered gearing, LSD, and ITR brakes can compete with the Type R in TTD, unless there is something else possible during a dyno reclass. Meaning, is it possible to class an Integra RS chassis with all USDM ITR parts swapped over besides the chassis bracing and lighter front windshield at the same level as an ITR? Meaning, I know the car will have to go through a dyno reclass due to the engine swap, but if it takes points for even the LSD and gearing change alone, it will never be competitive with a Type R in TTD. So during the dyno reclass is it possible to list the car as an Integra RS as stated above, provide all requested information, and request a new base class of TTD withOUT being assessed for LSD, gearing change, 5x114 hubs, rear LCAs, etc?

 

TTD EG Civic Hatch with B18C(X) DOHC VTEC Swap

I've included this chassis primarily because I've seen posts on other forums quoting old TT rules where swaps like these had pre-approved dyno reclassing examples. So my question, will a swapped EG hatch be able to get close to a Type R in terms of points in TTD? If the car takes +3 pts for altered gear ratios, +3 points for addition of LSD, +2 pts for ITR brakes, then I don't see how it could compete with a Type R chassis either. That is unless what I'm missing here is to take true advantage of the dyno reclass, and max out the weight/hp calculation. That is, perform I/H/E and a high compression rebuild on the B18C(X) and submit for dyno reclass. This means the points for the gearing, LSD, and brakes that will be assessed will be made up for in engine mods, making this build competitive with the ITR in TTD. Similar logic could be applied to the Integra RS above. However this all falls apart if you can dyno reclass the Type R with similar engine mods as well... Gah! Help!

[AZELISE]

In my opinion you have to consider the following:

 

The driver makes the biggest difference in where you finish. Money is better spent on coaching than go fast parts.

 

2017 is probably the last year for the class TTD. The 2018 rules have not been published yet.

 

If you want to use OEM parts that you have access to and a VTEC engine (seems to be the theme of your post) your best bet is a stock ITR. This would also be a nice car for AX stock class. This would be an expensive initial cost but will have the advantage for 2017. One thing to consider is the limited availability and price for lightweight wheels. Not sure what 2018 brings.

 

The other three options look like you want to use ITR parts on another chassis. The rules were designed so that the points are based on maximum performance parts. So putting heavy ITR brakes/ITR transaxle/diff on an RS chassis gets you the same points as putting on aluminum mono block brakes/custom gears transaxle/cluch plate diff.

 

If you want to have competitive equipment for multiple classing systems, you end up with a compromise. Build it for one set of rules and accept your classing in the other.

[AZELISE]

As to the "CRX 1.6L DOHC VTEC" listed in the rules... A little research found that the only CRX with both DOHC and VTEC would have a non-USDM B16A1 or a JDM B16A SiR engine. You should probably email Greg to clarify the listing unless someone knows more than I do.

 

If that listing is for either of those cars (European or Japanese market), the following from 8.1.1 would apply:

"For The vehicles that are specifically listed and classed below that were never available for retail sale in the U.S.A. will use the base trim package of the vehicle in its primary domestic market."

[ZeroForceMember]

Thank you AZELISE for your replies. An Elise is something I would love to track if I had about double the budget

 

We're definitely on the same page. The only disadvantage to the ITR I see for my goals would be the cost, both initial and perhaps recoccuring if trying to remain more stock. The ITR's advantages to me are that it would allow me to progress nicely through Solo Street, Street Touring and Street Prepared, while I move through HPDE. This is a huge benefit to me, because I would be able to get advice from knowledgeable individuals while slowly building the car up for TT and honing my skills.

 

Most of my questions related to the ITR sum into, is the advantage really that big in terms of points assessment in TT? This is because the ITR seems that it can do very well with stock trans gearing/FD, brakes, LSD, etc. for the first few years while I'm green.

 

Most of my questions related to any chassis that is non-ITR, cheaper, and takes a B-swap well mostly relates to working around the ITR's base classification advantages in TT. Is it possible? And how? Answers I'm looking for before I make decisions about investing into another VIN number, or sticking with the CRX.

 

I do understand that any swapped motor in Solo, and their non-USDM chassis rules, are much different. Basically any other car than the ITR I'm talking about runs in Modified, and my budget and initial skill level would leave me non-competitive. I could accept running a B swapped chassis in Solo, if the car classed well in TTD or it's 2018+ equivalent. But I've seen enough changes in the rules to know what you mean about sticking with an ITR.

 

In regards to the CRX B16 base classification, I will wait to see if someone else knows more about this topic. If not, I'll email Greg as you said. And then maybe you'll sell me your ITR .

[ScottBell]

 

 

 

TTD DC2 Integra Type R

In the Base Classifications section of the rules there is a Integra Type R listed with a min. comp. weight of 2600 for TTD. I would like some clarification regarding this base class and BTM parts. If I read section 8.5 of the rules correctly, a DC2 ITR will NOT be assessed for parts like: OEM wing, OEM LSD, etc. Therefore, if one was to take a stock ITR with a min. comp. weight of 2600 lbs, and run 205mm Hoosier A7s the math would be: -7 pts for 205s in TTD, +22 pts for A7s, = 15 points left while remaining in TTD. [/q}

 

 

An ITR built for D is a solid runner. A fully rules optimized ITR has the D lap record at NOLA and is really close at RA.

[Z06phile]

With 205 A7s you'll only have 4 points to work with. Not good.