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markinphoenix

Hard Dog ND Sport Roll Bar Is NOT Legal For NASA Use

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markinphoenix

Recently a NASA Arizona Region official refused to let me and another owner of a 2016 MX-5 run our ND’s in their HPDE event because they said the Hard Dog ND Sport roll bar installed on our cars does not comply NASA rules. Specifically, The Hard Dog ND Sport roll bar does not meet the following quoted NASA specification. “The main hoop should have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The braces shall be attached as near as possible to the top of the main hoop, and no more than six (6) inches below the top.” The distance between top of the main hoop and the top of the rear braces is a little over 7 inches on the Hard Dog ND Sport bar. Hard Dog says the design of the convertible top prevented the rear braces from meeting the NASA specification.


NASA rules say “NASA does not endorse any brand or model and will not be held liable for any failures of roll bars.” Hard Dog says there is no NASA certification process for a roll bar. This is a little confusing since several roll bars are listed in the NASA Club Codes and Regulations as being “Acceptable”. I’m not sure how some roll bars were listed as being acceptable when they don’t certify roll bars. Someone at NASA may have “grandfathered” in some roll bars that NASA had been allowing to run in their events. In practice it appears NASA provides detailed specifications and it is left to the local NASA officials to interpret the rules and apply them. Therefore, your local NASA official may or may not allow vehicles equipped with any roll bar to participate based upon if they think a roll bar is in compliance with their rules. It might be a good idea to confirm a roll bar you are considering purchasing meets their design specifications the race organization you want to run with, before making a purchase.


Flyin’ Miata states on their website that the Hard Dog ND Sport roll bar is “Legal for NASA use”, but since the roll bar doesn’t comply with the NASA rules apparently it isn’t Legal for NASA use. Another quote from Flyin’ Miatas website “Legal for NASA events. Our competitors may claim otherwise, but NASA says it's legal” From conversations with the manufacturer of the Hard Dog roll bar I think Flyin’ Miata believes this roll bar is legal for NASA use because the manufacturer verbally told them so. Flyin’ Miata should offer proof in writing from NASA that the roll bar is legal for NASA use, or remove the statement about the legality of the ND Sport roll bar from their website so they aren’t misleading and upsetting customers. I spent $735 for this roll bar and spent 10 hours installing it and modifying my car so I could go racing with NASA and other organizations only to find out it isn’t approved. Fortunately I can still go to HPDE events with other organizations. I sent Flyin’ Miata an email message about this asking them to respond but they haven’t responded.


Hard Dog offered to find and provide me with a copy of an email message from someone as NASA stating something about this roll bar being acceptable to NASA. So far I haven’t received this document.


If anyone, especially NASA, Flyin’ Miata, or Hard Dog Fabrication has any clarifying or additional information on this subject please post. Ultimately I would like to find out Hard Dog Fabrication and NASA have worked this out and NASA will accept Hard Dog ND Sport roll bars in HPDE events.

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markinphoenix

I received a message from Eric Anderson at Flyin' Miata saying he is talking with Bethania Garage (Hard Dog Fabrication), and they have been talking with Shawn Meze, the Technical Director Of Racing for NASA about this issue. Eric said he hopes to conclude this soon and get us some answers. So they are working the issue. I really appreciate their taking action and keeping us informed.

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getfast
I spent $735 for this roll bar and spent 10 hours installing it and modifying my car so I could go racing with NASA and other organizations only to find out it isn’t approved.

 

No rollbar is legal for racing - you'd need a full cage. :wink:


Interestingly this page about the Blackbird Fabworx version of same doesn't say anything about NASA legality. :?


Sorry to hear this happened and hope a determination can be made soon!

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markinphoenix

The manufacturer of the rollbar, Flyin' Miata, and NASA have reviewed and discussed the issue.  The bottom line is this roll bar doesn't meet the NASA design criteria in the NASA CCR.  The local NASA officials are the final decision makers on all technical inspection issues.  It has been rumored that some NASA regions allow people to use this roll bar, but the official in Arizona won't.

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Roman V.
1 hour ago, markinphoenix said:

The manufacturer of the rollbar, Flyin' Miata, and NASA have reviewed and discussed the issue.  The bottom line is this roll bar doesn't meet the NASA design criteria in the NASA CCR.  The local NASA officials are the final decision makers on all technical inspection issues.  It has been rumored that some NASA regions allow people to use this roll bar, but the official in Arizona won't.

You just talking about using it in HPDE, correct? 

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juiblex79@gmail.com

 

 

This is just a mix up up the general rules for HPDE & TT TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS with the COMPETITION ENTRY REGULATIONS.

NASA lists a few examples of acceptable roll bars, but in the end it's up to the officials to decided.  It's odd to me that Arizona would specifically exclude something listed as an acceptable example of what NASA is looking for in a roll bar. 

Quote

 

HIGH PERFORMANCE DRIVING AND TIME TRIALS

11.4.7 Roll Bars
All open cars should have a roll bar installed to help protect the occupant(s) from injury during a roll-over. The
main hoop shall be one continuous piece with smooth Mandrel bends with no evidence of crimping or wall failure.
All welds should be of the highest possible quality, with full penetration [Ref:(15.6.15)]. All cars with roll bars are
required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases where the driver’s head may come
in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a seatback brace is required in conformance with section
#15.6.21. Acceptable roll bars include, but are not limited to, the following:

Hard Dog
AC - Ace
D - Deuce (center-braced model only)
AB - M1 Hard Core
TB – M1 Hard Core Hardtop
9B – M2 Hard Core
NB – M2 Hard Core

Auto Power
Street Roll Bar
Street-Sport Roll Bar
Race Roll Bar
Blackbird Fabworx (Miata / MX5 / 2017 Fiat 124)
SD (for NA and NB)
RZ (for NC and ND)
GT3 (for NA, NB, NC and ND)
The above roll bars are examples only. NASA does not endorse any brand or model and will not be held liable
for any failures of roll bars.

 

Quote

RACING AND COMPETITION

15.6.11 Rear Braces (see diagram at the end of section)
The main hoop should have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The braces shall be attached as near as
possible to the top of the main hoop, and no more than six (6) inches below the top. The braces should not
contain any bends*. There must be at least 30 degrees between the plane of the main hoop and the plane of
the rear braces. The main hoop rear braces may consist of an “X” pattern design. The main hoop braces may
be mounted at the rear shock mounts or suspension pickup points (providing that the braces remain in compliance
with all other sections of the CCR). They may go through any rear bulkhead(s) provided the bulkhead(s) is sealed
around the cage braces. *There may be certain exceptions allowed for cars that cannot possible meet this “no
bend” requirement. One exception is listed [Ref:(15.6.11.A)]. Other exceptions may be made if all of the required
bars meet the specifications for a vehicle in the next heavier we

 

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