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Greg G.

ST5 & ST6 2019 Official Rules

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Greg G.

The 2019 ST5 & ST6 Official Rules should be posted soon.  There are some changes from the Provisional Rules posted at the end of July, as NASA National Executives made choices to help keep ST6 as an entry level class. 

These are the highlights of the classing differences between the Provisional rules and the Official rules:

The Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio for ST6 will be 18.00:1
Eligibility for ST6 will be:
ST6 models must have 168 (one-hundred sixty-eight) or less factory rated engine horsepower and an engine displacement less than 2449 mL (cc). However, 2006+ Mazda MX-5 models are specifically not eligible for ST6. 1   (No exception for E30's).
The weight break for 226mm versus 257mm NSW will remain 2400 lbs
The A-Arm Mod Factor assessment will remain at -0.7
100 TW Tire Mod Factor assessment will be increased to +0.5

Yes, NASA realizes that there are vehicles that could fit into ST6, but they are not eligible (just as there are vehicles that are not eligible for ST5 but could be made to fit).  There were many hours of discussions and debates of the merits and downsides of various possible eligibility criteria.  NASA Executives believe that these choices are the best for the success and longevity of the ST6/TT6 classes.

 

Greg G.
NASA National ST/TT Director.   

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JH36

Greg,

I understand that you have to draw the line somewhere, but this is going to be a negative (at least for the NASA MA group).  We had a situation to create a solid run group of 10+ cars....now we are fragmented. At least three cars are in a very tight spot. I don’t where they could reasonably go.  I would like to appeal to revert to the sub-2.5 liter rule. We could ballast or restrict to make 18:1. 

Thank you,

Jack

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JamesMilko

What is the problem that the eligibility rule is trying to solve?  Are we just trying to replicate the car list everyone hated from PT?

With the rules as they are, and their impact on MA, I don't even know what to say.  PTE has been a barely existant class for years in MA.  We had significant interest in ST6, but the majority of the field was just kicked to ST5.  The majority of the field were also PTE cars.  Removing PTE cars from ST6 makes little sense to me.

We need a solution from NASA national for this.  The value prop of a NASA membership and race weekend entry just dropped significantly for a ST6 racer in Mid Atlantic.

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jimgood

I'm not throwing cubic dollars at my e36 323is to be competitive in ST5. My car, as it is, is barely keeping up with PTE cars. You might force me to register in ST5 but I'm racing ST6 and that's that.

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dadasracecar

So now I have no place to race. I’m not nearly competitive in ST5 and have no desire lose 20 hp or gain 300 pounds of ballast. How do we request a change that will allow PTE cars?  Where are this guys supposed to race?

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flier129

What is the correct channel to give feedback on this? Post here, email, call, write a letter?

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1jeffcat

I actually like the new rules set, although I will agree that it displaces some cars, however most can be placed into ST6(which is now slower than PTE), with the addition of ballast.  The RAW P:W ratio DRAMATICALLY alters the modified end resulting P:W so by simply adding ballast or 100TW tires, you can run ST6.  

I do have one question though.  The brake section is bit confusing to me.  It seems that this statement in the rule book is a bit ambiguous or a double negative.  It seems like you are stating you can only use brakes from the SAME generation, and then it is followed with a statement stating that he you can update/backdate with brakes from ANY generation.  Any clarification on that that is specifically denoting?  IE: 1994 Miata adding 2000+ NB Miata sport brakes.  Is that considered updating/backdating and allowed by the "exception", or is it a modifier?  I have no interest in the modification for myself, but I'm sure others will probably be confused by it by the large Miata congregation.  

Quote

 

Because the definition of “OEM” is any part that comes from the vehicle manufacturer either as a standard feature, a factory option, or on a factory optional trim model/package of that generation of the street-legal (in the U.S.A.) version of the vehicle, a vehicle may be updated or backdated with such parts without a Modification Factor assessment (applies to those items that would otherwise be assessed one).

Brake modification exception: The exception to this rule is that brake calipers/brackets and rotor size may be updated or backdated to any generation model of that vehicle, provided that the donor vehicle is eligible for competition in ST5 and ST6, respectively.

 

 

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1jeffcat
3 hours ago, dadasracecar said:

So now I have no place to race. I’m not nearly competitive in ST5 and have no desire lose 20 hp or gain 300 pounds of ballast. How do we request a change that will allow PTE cars?  Where are this guys supposed to race?

We are pointed out in TTE and still able to compete in the new TT6 as is.  If our average HP is little too high, we just need to add a smidge of ballast, but I doubt our average HP is too high.  Depends on what it dynos.  If I was you, I would maybe run a small plated restrictor,  corner ballast the car/run more fuel, and you should be good to go.   

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arsprod

You just went from a lot of relieved, happy racers to an even larger set of pissed off racers. Based on conversations on Facebook, this move will likely force some out of NASA or to detune for dyno and then cheat at races that don't have a dyno available. The new rules actually benefit me but it's bad for the class so I'm against it. At least consider moving to 17.5:1 rather than 18. Gutting the class to bring in a handful of F cars doesn't make sense.

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cabowabo

Seems there's a lot of huffing and puffing over adding some ballast (for existing PTE/TTE cars that aren't explicitly banned from ST/TT6 - a mere 30lbs in my case). TTE* recalss of 2430 / 136 (peak) now factors out to (2460 / ~132avg) after taking -.7 a-arm / -.3 weight / +.4 BTM aero, but get sway bars back. So ultimately, car will likely be slightly faster or at least easier to drive not running OEM sways. Not that big of a deal. 

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arsprod

The huffing and puffing is excluding e30's and 944's from st6 in an apparent attempt to fit what used to be F cars. It's good you're ok but some of the core PTE competitors in my region and others were just knocked into st5 where they can't compete.

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rherold9
34 minutes ago, arsprod said:

The huffing and puffing is excluding e30's and 944's from st6 in an apparent attempt to fit what used to be F cars. It's good you're ok but some of the core PTE competitors in my region and others were just knocked into st5 where they can't compete.

Oh, they can compete.... They just have to spend the money ;P

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jimgood
6 hours ago, jimgood said:

I'm not throwing cubic dollars at my e36 323is to be competitive in ST5. My car, as it is, is barely keeping up with PTE cars. You might force me to register in ST5 but I'm racing ST6 and that's that.

I take that back. I can't meet either spec now. I didn't see that ST6 had changed to 18:1 (was 17:1 in the Provisional). I would have to add 160 lbs to my car to be fair to the ST6 guys and be at 18:1. Or add 100hp to be competitive in ST5. 

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rherold9

As I have mentioned in a few other threads (FB as well) maybe 5 should increase from 14:1 to 15:1 or 15.5:1 and especially now that 6 has increased from 17:1 to 18:1. This could help a lot more cars fit into 5 a little easier

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jimgood
4 minutes ago, rherold9 said:

As I have mentioned in a few other threads (FB as well) maybe 5 should increase from 14:1 to 15:1 or 15.5:1 and especially now that 6 has increased from 17:1 to 18:1. This could help a lot more cars fit into 5 a little easier

Wouldn't that just bump a bunch of cars out of ST5 and piss off a whole new set of people?

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cabowabo
59 minutes ago, arsprod said:

The huffing and puffing is excluding e30's and 944's from st6 in an apparent attempt to fit what used to be F cars. It's good you're ok but some of the core PTE competitors in my region and others were just knocked into st5 where they can't compete.

My comment was meant to pardon those that were explicitly excluded from TT6 via displacement/factory rated hp, although they might be a good fit for the class. Those that are already competing in PTE/TTE and are eligible for PT6/TT6 should have nothing to complain about as it's merely adding ballast and/or de-tuning a bit. 

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JH36

The cap on displacement is what takes me (and others) out.  I'm under 2.5 at 2479 (I'm in an old, cantankerous, worn out 1983 944)...the limit is set at 2449.  I've been running at 18:1 and above for a long time.  That's no big deal.  I tested at 17.2:1 at VIR last weekend.  It was fun, but not a problem to go back to more weight if that got us back into ST6.  Again, the displacement cap is what kicked us out.

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flier129

My main question, what's the reasoning behind the displacement rule? It seems to be to exclude E30s, 944s, and similar..... what about rotaries? They make similar power to an e30, but are well under the displacement rule.....

I don't think these changes are healthy for ST6/TT6. I'd really like to know where we can send official feedback.

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rherold9
27 minutes ago, jimgood said:

Wouldn't that just bump a bunch of cars out of ST5 and piss off a whole new set of people?

Better solution than just complaining about not being able to fit? I'm not saying it's the best but it's a possible solution if so many cars have a hard time fitting than something needs to be done to bridge the gap, no?

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arsprod

And by the way, several of the example calculations are wrong. The sooner we can get a calculator tool the better!

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Roman V.
39 minutes ago, arsprod said:

And by the way, several of the example calculations are wrong. The sooner we can get a calculator tool the better!

In the works.

  • Like 1

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1jeffcat
4 hours ago, jimgood said:

I take that back. I can't meet either spec now. I didn't see that ST6 had changed to 18:1 (was 17:1 in the Provisional). I would have to add 160 lbs to my car to be fair to the ST6 guys and be at 18:1. Or add 100hp to be competitive in ST5. 

.....so add 160lbs....

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1jeffcat

I'm fine with the rules, but will admit that the 2449cc displacement rule is pretty stupid.  Obviously, having ulterior motives on forcing E30s and 944s to do spec racing.  Quite frankly having a displacement rule at all is pretty stupid if you have a factory HP cap in place already.  

Edited by 1jeffcat

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JamesMilko

 

4 hours ago, Roman V. said:

In the works.

While you're in there can you fix the typo on the displacement rule?

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Roman V.
28 minutes ago, JamesMilko said:

 

While you're in there can you fix the typo on the displacement rule?

Haha. What value would you like? ;-)

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