GDogFast Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 (edited) Hi All: I am a brand new, stone cold, fresh meat newbie who thinks he can drive and whose first event ever is Buttonwillow (HPDE-1). I need some advice because there is not much time left before the event. I am concerned about my seats. The car is a 1993 Mustang GT, highly modified, everything done first class. I had a 4-point roll bar custom fitted out of 1.5” DOM and professionally installed in the car with BSCI Padding. Now I know that means I have to change everything else, which I did - except for the seats. I installed a Crow 6-point harness with dedicated attachment points and a lateral bar welded to the roll bar at the correct height to achieve the correct mounting angle for the shoulder harness. Since I plan initially to drive this thing to events, I just did not want to install a full racing seat at this time. Now the seat is not stock, but it is only a FloFit. It is way stronger than stock but not a full racing seat. I know about the risk of breaking the seat back and all that, so what I did was to have a second lateral bar welded to the roll bar just below the one used for the shoulder harness, positioned just below the top of the seat frame. The driving position of the seat puts the seat back just in front of the roll bar and this second lateral bar serves to prevent the seat back from bending backwards. My roll bar fabricator (Scott Murphy, Scott Performance Fabrication, Irvine, CA) told me this should pass anyone’s tech, but after reading TopElement’s recent post, I am having some doubts. Couple of other points: 1) The factory 3-point system is still operational for both seats. 2) The passenger seat does not have a full harness installed there yet. All I have there is the factory belt and a Schroth 4-point. My concern here is for the instructor, and whether the passenger seat needs to be the same as the driver’s. So, what do you guys think? Will this safety system likely pass tech for HPDE-1? I have already paid for both days and the hotel. If I get there after all this trouble and expense and then fail tech, it will be a serious disappointment for me. I am trying to prevent that from happening. Appreciate your thoughts, and thanks for reading all this. Gary DeLoach Anxious Newbie Edited October 30, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Gary- This sounds fine to me. I am running tech at BW, so you should be OK. If you read CCR 11.4.8 and 11.4.7, you'll see that the seatbelts required are either "factory stock" or must meet the CCR 15 requirements for race belts. As to the rollbar, 11.4.7 says you must take care to make sure the seats won't submarine under the bar and conk your head. Since you've got the Crows you meet 11.4.8 if they're installed right and it sounds like you've got 11.4.7 covered with the additional bar. However, you should make sure that the factory belt is available for the instructor as he or she may not be comfortable with the Schroth belt, which unless it meets CCR 15 will not fly. So, the best thing to do would be to spend the extra $150 for the nice belts on the passenger side as a courtesy to the person strapping in with you. Hope that helps. -JWL John Lindsey NASA-LA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDogFast Posted October 30, 2005 Author Share Posted October 30, 2005 John, thank you so much! I appreciate your help here. I actually have already bought the same 6-point harness for the passenger seat. However, to install them will require another trip to my fabricator for another shoulder harness bar. The driver's side bar only spans the left hoop post to the diagonal bar. I just don't know if I can get in there in time. If I can, I will install them for sure. I have always planned to do that. The factory 3-point is still functional, but the harness would be better I know. Thanks again, I was really worried about that driver's seat. Gary DeLoach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Andre Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I thought the rules were pretty clear that the driver and passenger seat belts must match. 5/6 pt for driver means 5/6 pt for passenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted November 1, 2005 National Staff Share Posted November 1, 2005 I thought the rules were pretty clear that the driver and passenger seat belts must match. 5/6 pt for driver means 5/6 pt for passenger. Not so clear: Passenger seatbelts must meet the same requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. This can certainly be read as follows: since the driver seatbelts requires either OEM belts, or conform to CCR #15.5 (except for the 2 year expiration date), that the passenger belts can be either OEM or conform to 15.5. (ie. meet the same requirements). I understand what you are saying, but it's another way of interpreting the same wording. If it said that identical type belts must be used by the driver and passenger, then it would clearly fall under your interpretation. I personally would not want to instruct in a car where the driver wore 5 pts. and he left OEM's for me, though. And, since there are almost 2 weeks left before the event, and it would take less than 2 hours to fab the extra bar, I would think that Gary should try to get it done. Oh, BTW, welcome to NASA Gary. You'll have a great time at Buttonwillow--see you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Andre Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I personally would not want to instruct in a car where the driver wore 5 pts. and he left OEM's for me, though. Nor would I want you to in my car. I'll be there with dual 6 pts. I guess my memory is weak. I thought that if you have a roll bar, all the seat belts must meet the 15.5 requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDogFast Posted November 1, 2005 Author Share Posted November 1, 2005 Hey guys, thanks for the welcome! Regarding the passenger side belts, I am meeting with my fabricator today to see if he can work me in somehow. This guy is really popular around here, and he has a 4-6 week backlog at all times. Fortunately, we have been casual friends for at least 12 years, so if there is any way he can do it, I am sure he will. I have always intended to get this done, as evidenced by my buying the second set of belts the same time I bought the driver's side. If I were an instructor, I would want to be at least as protected as the guy I am trying to help. It's really one of those "Duh" things to me. It's just that until now, there were so many other things I had to do to get the car ready, this one just unfortunately got pushed to last minute. That was not entirely my fault, because the last time the car was in the fab shop, I had instructed him to build the bars. Well, I got bumped and would have to come back to get it done later. In the interim, we had an unexpected death in our immediate family and anything like this just got set aside for a while. But I am pretty sure I can get it done in time. I will just have to becoime one of those "emergencies" like the one that bumped me the last time. Looking forward to meeting all of you at BW!!! -Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDogFast Posted November 1, 2005 Author Share Posted November 1, 2005 OK, I have an appointment for Thursday to get the bars fabbed up. Maybe you guys can help me with this question: I was wondering if these bars (harness and seat back brace) on the passenger side can be bolt-in removable. Reason is that once those bars are in, access to the rear seat area of the car will be SEVERELY restricted. Although I would never carry a passenger there, it is nice to be able to crawl back there once in a while to fix things, or get a better angle on something I'm working on. Appreciate your learned opinions, -Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Corkran Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I was wondering if these bars (harness and seat back brace) on the passenger side can be bolt-in removable. Yes, so long as it's a well-designed setup. Check out the Autopower removeable diagonal/harness bar (pics at I/O-Port Racing, for one) for one idea if your fabricator doesn't have a preferred design. Avoid bolts through unsupported holes drilled in the tube, for one. As an instructor, I thank you for your concern for the safety of anyone in the right seat. I'm sure whoever who gets in with you at BW will thank you as well. Oh, try to find your instructor early before your first session so you can make sure his sub belt fits OK. A too-loose sub belt is as bad as no sub belt. Of course your instructor might be an extra large person, so be prepared to adjust the belt. I mention it because many of the setups I've come across can only be adjusted with the seat out. Leaving the stock belts installed is also a good idea, that way you won't miss your first session in case any sort of problem is discovered with the new setup at the last minute. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDogFast Posted November 2, 2005 Author Share Posted November 2, 2005 Hi Frank: I appreciate your imput. After talking at length with Scott, I have decided to just weld them in. The 3-tab method (AutoPower) is OK, except when the bars are removed, the tabs are still sticking out there - not clean. Scott's suggestion would eliminate that "problem", using a clasping method like the off-road guys use to attach their front suspensions to the frame. But those things are huge by comparison, and there is some doubt whether we would even be able to get the second bar in there at the correct height. So, plan is: "F-it", just weld them in there and deal with it. I don't really need to get in the back seat much anymore, and if I do I guess i could always crawl in through the hatchback area. Well, I can see my beautiful GT street car is fast becoming a dedicated racer. Next thing you know I will be wanting a trailer ... Nah! -Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92MNstanger Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I was reading through the CCR and have follow up questions. I have; AutoPower's 4 pt bolt in bar(1.75"x.120" DOM), Kirkey Passenger seat w/ seatback Brace, Out of date, but excellent shape 5 pt harnesses, UltraShield Driver's seat on sliders w/o a seat back brace. When reading the CCR I came up with two points that I need clarification on. 1- Rollbar padding. How is "any bar the driver can come in contact with" defined. I am wondering where to put rollbar padding. My 4pt bar is 6-8" behind both seats, do I even need padding? 2- Seat Back Braces. I have one on the passenger side. I have my driver seat on sliders so I can get in/out of the car. I have a bit of a dilema here. Is the CCR astaing that only FIA approved seats don't need seatback braces? If I install a brace I won't be able to get in/out of my car. It has an airbag and a non-tilting steering column. With the seat in driving postion the wheel is very close (4-6") from the side bolster. What is suggested? Install a brace and figure it out or am I ok without one? Anyone else have experience and a suggetion for running a Seatback brace and slipping into a car that needs the factory wheel/airbag to stay street legal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpanther Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The car is a 1993 Mustang GT, highly modified, everything done first class. I had a 4-point roll bar custom fitted out of 1.5” DOM and professionally installed in the car with BSCI Padding. Does your car weigh under 2000lbs? For the heavy Mustang that 1.5" roll bar may not be legal. Even if you switch to a full cage, you may have issues. I'm guessing that most prepped Mustangs are about 3000lbs (dry). If you are 3001lbs or up you need a 1.75" x .120 cage. Have your fabricator read the NASA CCR before he starts doing any work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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