Members Al F. Posted November 26, 2012 Members Share Posted November 26, 2012 See the NASAProRacing rules section or of course the nasa poni car web site: http://www.nasaponycars.com/ Explanations to come shortly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted November 26, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 26, 2012 hmmm...looks like the poni car site needs to update mirror servers or something...should be there soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastntim Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Some suprising rule changes. I'm curious how the 3rd gens end up with the same weight penalty as the 4th gens? I don't see the two platforms as being equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Some suprising rule changes. I'm curious how the 3rd gens end up with the same weight penalty as the 4th gens? I don't see the two platforms as being equal. They have been at the same weight for a couple years now or more. If it was OK then, why is it not OK now? The change was made to the GM's in regards to the Fords and Not made towers the 4th gen in regards to everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteL Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 The 2005 up Ford weight table looks like it has a misprint on the top line. More torque = less weight going from 275 to 276 lbs-ft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted November 27, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2012 Damn it! lol Youre absolutely right. I'll fix that tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Under brake calipers it still says that each caliper may not exceed $600. The stoptechs are over $2,000 for the front pair. Soooo yah what about those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastntim Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Some suprising rule changes. I'm curious how the 3rd gens end up with the same weight penalty as the 4th gens? I don't see the two platforms as being equal. They have been at the same weight for a couple years now or more. If it was OK then, why is it not OK now? The change was made to the GM's in regards to the Fords and Not made towers the 4th gen in regards to everyone else. Personally, I don't think the third and fourth gens are the same as far as performance is concerned. Bob Denton drove his third gen better than anyone else in the group but in the very first time he drove a fourth gen, he set a lap record. The next week he bought a fourth gen to build into a race car. Coincidence? I doubt it,.. but I could be wrong, although that doesn't happen often . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Under brake calipers it still says that each caliper may not exceed $600. The stoptechs are over $2,000 for the front pair. Soooo yah what about those? $2K for the pair as a kit (calipers, rotors, brackets, etc..) or for caliper only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Kit price. Details! Haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
densmore Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Robert, now that you mention it, it would have been nice if we had brought up the face the 3rd gens could use a little weight advantage. The 3rd and 4th are not the same cars. I know I'm driving my butt off in my 3rd gen, but after driving a 4 the gen I started building one also. Brad CMC 57 camaro Rocky Mountain Region Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastntim Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Robert, now that you mention it, it would have been nice if we had brought up the face the 3rd gens could use a little weight advantage. The 3rd and 4th are not the same cars. I know I'm driving my butt off in my 3rd gen, but after driving a 4 the gen I started building one also. Brad CMC 57 camaro Rocky Mountain Region Brad, I haven't driven a 4th gen yet, and I probably shouldn't otherwise I'll probably be in the exact same boat as you. Honestly, I don't think the third and fourth gens are equal but the number of third gen guys is getting smaller and smaller, so I'm not expecting much help either. There was a lot of talk about the fords and how they fared in comparison to the GM's but no distinction was made between the third and fourth gens. I know in Midwest and Great Lakes, despite there being almost as many third gens as fourth gens, the only race won by a third gen was by multiple cars ahead of him being DQ'd for various infractions. Yet, somehow, it has been decided that third gens are equal to fourth gens. If there is data that shows them being equal, I haven't seen it. If this data exists, maybe someone can enlighten us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracerwhite Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Robert, now that you mention it, it would have been nice if we had brought up the face the 3rd gens could use a little weight advantage. The 3rd and 4th are not the same cars. I know I'm driving my butt off in my 3rd gen, but after driving a 4 the gen I started building one also. Brad CMC 57 camaro Rocky Mountain Region Brad, I haven't driven a 4th gen yet, and I probably shouldn't otherwise I'll probably be in the exact same boat as you. Honestly, I don't think the third and fourth gens are equal but the number of third gen guys is getting smaller and smaller, so I'm not expecting much help either. There was a lot of talk about the fords and how they fared in comparison to the GM's but no distinction was made between the third and fourth gens. I know in Midwest and Great Lakes, despite there being almost as many third gens as fourth gens, the only race won by a third gen was by multiple cars ahead of him being DQ'd for various infractions. Yet, somehow, it has been decided that third gens are equal to fourth gens. If there is data that shows them being equal, I haven't seen it. If this data exists, maybe someone can enlighten us. Robert, how is tit getting smaller? Bob and Sidney's old car will be running with us next year, so I don't see them going away. There are 2 new fourth gens being built this winter, so we will have more 4th gens but the same amount of third gens. I believe one of the weaknesses of the third gen is that they aren't as stiff as the fourth gens. This was one of the reasons for taking my car apart. To try to identify the problem areas in my car and share/communicate them with the other directors. Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 There will always be fewer older cars built than newer ones. We can go down the list of reasons why, but I don't see the need. The reality is, guys will gravitate to the newer cars more times than not. Add to that guys who replace existing cars will more times than not upgrade as well. Since for the GM camp there is only 3rd gen and 4th gen and both are old already, folks gravitate towards a car that is more "turn key" right off the street. Stock 4th gen has a 100% legal CMC motor. Stock 3rd gen needs motor part to upgrade. Modified 3rd gen will likely not have CMC legal parts. Fords have this same issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastntim Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Robert, how is tit getting smaller? Bob and Sidney's old car will be running with us next year, so I don't see them going away. There are 2 new fourth gens being built this winter, so we will have more 4th gens but the same amount of third gens. I believe one of the weaknesses of the third gen is that they aren't as stiff as the fourth gens. This was one of the reasons for taking my car apart. To try to identify the problem areas in my car and share/communicate them with the other directors. Bryan Bryan: Although those cars are still in the region, we don't know the level of competition that these cars will be running at. In all likelihood, since both cars were bought by non-licensed drivers, there likely will be a period of time that it takes to get to the front. I didn't realize that finding weaknesses within your car chassis was necessarily one of your goals. I applaud you for that and for the tremendous amount of effort you are putting into your car. Once again, all I have to go on is what I have seen to date. The fastest cars in our groups have consistently been the S197 and the fourth gens. I think everyone in the midwest/great lakes group would agree that Bob Denton is one of the best drivers in our regions and if you look most any video Bob was driving the wheels off his third gen to compete with Kent, Derek and even Tim, who has a fraction of the experience that Bob has (Tim - no disrespect just referring to years in the car). Beyond that during the summer you were at the track when Bob got into Tim's car for the first time during the enduro and within 10 minutes had set a new lap record. The next week Bob bought a fourth gen to replace his third gen. I know he bought the fourth gen for many other reasons but I'm going to guess at least one of those reasons was the difference in the handling of those cars. Again, I cannot prove any of this as it is just theory based upon certain results, but what better data do we have to compare the two platforms? All of the data posted by the directors compared the Fords vs fourth gens. Third gens weren't even looked at. It appears as if the Directors said that the third gens and fourth gens are close in terms of the chassis so they must be equal. The question I have is - From what I've read the fourth gens are actually heavier than the third gens despite they have substantially more plastic in the bodies i.e. front fenders and doors. Why would the fourth gens be heavier? Do they have more structural support making them generally stiffer? If anybody can explain this I'd appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape1548534725 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Why would the fourth gens be heavier? Do they have more structural support making them generally stiffer? If anybody can explain this I'd appreciate it. More sheet metal up front in frame rails/wheel wells, upper A-arms, bigger windshield, only steel bumpers, wider chassis. That's my guesses from trying to figure it out over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Why would the fourth gens be heavier? Do they have more structural support making them generally stiffer? If anybody can explain this I'd appreciate it. More sheet metal up front in frame rails/wheel wells, upper A-arms, bigger windshield, only steel bumpers, wider chassis. That's my guesses from trying to figure it out over the years. 4th gen rear axle is 3 inches wider, 17 in wheels/275 tires weigh more than 16 GTA's & 255's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 If someone is switching to a different platform b/c they feel it will be a cheaper / easier car to build or maintain then that is understandable. If the switch is b/c of a performance reason then I see that as a problem. IMO, all platforms should be of equal performance when built to the full extent of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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