MHISSTC Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I've run across several folks recently discussing preventative maintenance along with a 'ring and bearing refresh' on their GM engines as part of their preventative maintenance routine to prolong the life of the engine between major engine overhauls that require more expensive machine work or parts replacement. That made me realize that other than normal preventative maintenance in the form of regular oil changes, I have no idea what a "normal" engine 'ring and bearing refresh' cycle is on a Ford 5.0L, or how to determine if it's needed other than being obviously down on power or starting to produce visible smoke. We have 4 solid seasons on the engine in The Pumpkin since it was completely rebuilt after ingesting mystery metal bits from a used intake, and it continues to perform without issue. Any suggestions or guidance would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Watch for oil pressure drop, excessive oil consumption or a drop in power during the annual dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 My first motor ran great for 5 1/2 years until the balancer let go and snapped the crank. When I pulled it apart the cylinder walls still looked great. I didn't really check the bearings since there were bits and pieces all over the place. I spent $$ on a good balancer for the current motor and have 2 1/2 years on it so far. I burn about 1 qt of oil over an entire race weekend and just top it off after each day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37Stang Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Scott... One thing you want to look for when you pull the engine apart is the mating surface of the block and the main cap itself. Sometimes the caps will "walk" around in the mating saddles and this will show up as fretting on the surface. It probably is not an issue with the 3" stroke but something to look at while it is apart. If you see this a machinist can clean up the saddles, dust the caps then hone the mains. Using a quality fastener such as an ARP main bolt may help but it is more of a result from the caps themselves flexing. But it may be more cost effective to just get another block... The tolerances on the small block Ford mains are pretty good as I have not seen many, if any that I can recall off the top of my head, that needed the mains to be honed if they did not suffer main bearing failure. If you do go to the ARP, A1, etc... main bolts I would hone the mains just to be on the safe side. Also using a race style main bearing will help as they have greater clearance at the parting line. I really like the tolerances of the King alecular bearings for cast cranks. The cylinder walls of the fuel injected small block Fords usually have very little wear due to the lean fuel mixtures. If your cylinder walls look good with no deep scratches I would not hesitate to just re-ring it and call it good. If you don't feel comfortable putting new rings on an older cylinder and don't want to take the block to a machinist just pick up one of those three finger hones from a parts store. Cut some 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper in strips to cover the stones, tape the strips to the stones, spray the cylinders with some WD40 and put a cross hatch on the cylinder walls. The engine I freshened for my car had 217,000 miles on it out of an Explorer and I could not believe how good the walls looked... I did put it in the Sunnen just to make myself feel better but I don't think it will make one bit of difference. You can also do a compression test and/or leak down test if your engine is still together. If you get bad leak down numbers on a cylinder try shooting some 50 wt or so oil in the plug hole and perform the test again. If the numbers improve your rings are worn... If the number remain the same you have a valve leaking. If the valves are leaking you can hook compressed air to that cylinder and listen for the hiss... If out of the intake manifold the intake valve/seat is worn/damaged and if out of the header the exhaust valve/seat is worn/damaged. Hope this helps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Excellent info all. I appreciate it. We're not quite to the tear-down stage on The Pumpkin engine yet, but we will start taking more careful notes of things like oil pressure and consumption and all of the other items mentioned. With the transition from CMC to CMC2 power, we made changes to increase the power, so a drop in power would be hard to pick up on until we get another year or two worth of dyno pulls on it. I don't believe we've seen any smoke or oil consumption between oil changes either. So far so good is all I have to report on the engine. I'm definitely going back to the same engine builder when that time comes around again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Cleanliness in the build process is the key to making the engine last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dustin M. Posted October 30, 2013 Members Share Posted October 30, 2013 At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll reference the Corvette guys who go 5+ years on the same engine in STX classes. Scott don't forget about the TT regulars, I'm sure some of those guys are years in on their engines too, albeit without the weakness of the 5.0 block itself. Don't the cam bearing journals become a liability at some point too or is that a 351 only thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll reference the Corvette guys who go 5+ years on the same engine in STX classes. Scott don't forget about the TT regulars, I'm sure some of those guys are years in on their engines too, albeit without the weakness of the 5.0 block itself. Don't the cam bearing journals become a liability at some point too or is that a 351 only thing? No idea. That's why I posted the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37Stang Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll reference the Corvette guys who go 5+ years on the same engine in STX classes. Scott don't forget about the TT regulars, I'm sure some of those guys are years in on their engines too, albeit without the weakness of the 5.0 block itself. Don't the cam bearing journals become a liability at some point too or is that a 351 only thing? I am not aware of any problems with small block Ford cam bearings. The SBF cam journals are actually larger than big block Chevrolet cam journals. The majority of my experience is in drag race applications so it may be something that exists in endurance applications... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dustin M. Posted October 31, 2013 Members Share Posted October 31, 2013 I am having the worst time tracking this info down, I believe I read about it on corral.net. I want to say it was a 351W specific phenomenon where the motor dropped oil pressure and the cam bearing journal cracking around the oiling hole was to blame. Just something to pay close attention to when you do rebuild, because there will be very tiny cracks that precede the catastrophic cracks. Not worth tearing the motor down to check for. My way of thinking may be flawed, but I plan to wait until the motor tells me it wants to be rebuilt (oil pressure/consumption). Hopefully that doesn't come in the form of it scattering guts on the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 I am having the worst time tracking this info down, I believe I read about it on corral.net. I've never built an engine myself, so by no means do I have the personal experience to discount what you're indicating may be a possible concern. But if you're having that hard of a time tracking down the info, and you posted it to begin with because you may have read it on corral.net once, then that tells I probably shouldn't be too concerned about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37Stang Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I am having the worst time tracking this info down, I believe I read about it on corral.net. I want to say it was a 351W specific phenomenon where the motor dropped oil pressure and the cam bearing journal cracking around the oiling hole was to blame. Just something to pay close attention to when you do rebuild, because there will be very tiny cracks that precede the catastrophic cracks. Not worth tearing the motor down to check for. My way of thinking may be flawed, but I plan to wait until the motor tells me it wants to be rebuilt (oil pressure/consumption). Hopefully that doesn't come in the form of it scattering guts on the track. You are thinking of the main webbing cracking and going up into the cam tunnel. It happens when folks use power adders or add stroke to the crank with the thin casting blocks. Or getting into detonation will cause it too... It is probably not much of a concern with the short 3.00 stroke and relatively low rpm... The first sign of a problem will be, as you mentioned, loss of oil pressure followed by a catastrophic oil pan failure... LOL!!! When tearing down the engine just look for fretting in the main saddles and on the main cap mating surface. Just something to be on the look out for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dustin M. Posted October 31, 2013 Members Share Posted October 31, 2013 I believe what Fox is alluding to must be what I was thinking of and yes, since it's so hard to find probably not much of a concern. That said, if you're doing your first DIY refresh at some point, you may not know to look for that sort of thing. Once the 4.6 came out, I'm willing to bet squirmy main caps became a thing of the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Not allowing volunteer crew members put diesel into one of your fuel jugs is paramount to engine life!!! Boudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 I know this will be very hard to believe, but the engine in my CMC car was installed by the previous owner at some point in ~1998/1999. I bought the car in 2003, and raced it every year (making ~6-10 events a year) until 7 July 2013 (taking a pole and win at Laguna), without ever touching the shortblock. It had 3 different sets of heads (it came with E6s, I installed E7s, and a set of GT40s), 3 cams (some flat tappet job, a stock 87 SD roller cam, and, later, a B303). At the end, it definitely needed to be rebuilt, as it was starting to push the oil dipstick out of the tube. However, it NEVER had oil pressure issues - I ran 50w Valvoline racing oil, changed every other event. ~70psi after a fresh oil change, 60-65psi after a weekend of racing, regardless of ambient and engine temperatures. Approximately 15 years, racing the same engine. One hell of a run. It helps that it never saw any diesel fuel. Keep an eye on engine temps, keep a close eye on oil temps, keep a close eye on oil pressure. If you see it pushing oil out of the breathers or the dip stick tube, it likely means the rings are weak. If you see odd fluctuations in oil pressure, it's likely a bearing problem. Beyond that.....drive the living shit out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 Approximately 15 years, racing the same engine. One hell of a run. I'd say so. I guess I'm being a bit paranoid after listening in on some LSx folks last weekend who have engine refreshes planned after experiencing issues in only a handfull of seasons or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 My first motor ran great for 5 1/2 years until the balancer let go and snapped the crank. When I pulled it apart the cylinder walls still looked great. I didn't really check the bearings since there were bits and pieces all over the place.I spent $$ on a good balancer for the current motor and have 2 1/2 years on it so far. I burn about 1 qt of oil over an entire race weekend and just top it off after each day. I spoke way too soon. I blew the motor in qual on Sunday this last weekend. Exact same break as my last one. 3rd gear, on throttle, about 5k, and the crank snapped. I thought the last one blew due to a faulty balancer so I put a Romac ballancer on this motor. I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board and do some research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 ATI Pro Damper is the only way to go. Nothing compares! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Sorry to hear of the failure, Michael. ATI Pro Damper is the only way to go. Nothing compares! Based on my own person experiences, I'd only go with the Ford Motorsport SFI balancer. Had one on my Vortech-supercharged '86 GT (30,000+ miles, 375rwhp/385rwtq, daily driven + a few track events), as well as the race car (11 years, too many races to count). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Ford Racing (at least two years ago) would only use Innovators West balancers on their race cars. When I broke the oil pump gears in my 4.6 Ford said run either stock (heavy) balancers or the I.W unit. I have no idea if this is also true for the 5.0. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasa-rm Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 I spoke way too soon. I blew the motor in qual on Sunday this last weekend. And it was a beauty of a blowup! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
universaldirect333 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Exact same break as my last one. 3rd gear, on throttle, about 5k, and the crank snapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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