fire system safety pins, in or out during race?

[MHISSTC]

 

I found the above image in the TX year end video, thought it was funny/concerning, added the graphic comment, reposted it there, and received the following comments:

 

I keep mine pinned there as well. I know lots of folks who do this.

I only consider it a major issue if it is pinned at the bottle.

 

Having the pin in at the Handle is a good idea. It doesn't take any effort to pull it out and it's a disaster when it goes off accidentally not to mention a huge mess and pain to clean up haha.

 

Rather than contaminate that thread, I am following up on it here.

 

I'm interested in hearing opinions from others.

 

I do not believe it is a good practice to leave the safety pin in the fire system during a race.

 

I had to go back and review the CMC Rules and CCR. Both comments are right in that there is no specific requirement in either the CCR or CMC Rules stating the safety pin designed to keep the system from being accidentally discharged must be removed for a race. There is also no specific requirement that the extinguisher/discharge handle be easily accessible to anyone but the driver, even though it must be clearly labeled both inside the car and outside the car at the closest access point. I see the labeling requirement as an assumption that it would be beneficial for safety crews to know where it is, which would also make the assumption that they shouldn't have to go through an extra step other than just pulling the handle to make it work.

 

Unless I've stumbled upon my first RCR for 2014, I believe the various manufacturers installation instructions are clear enough about this that it shouldn't have to be specifically included in either the CCR or CMC rules.

 

A quick Internet search of instructions on three different systems yielded the following:

 

ESS:

Important: The safety pins must be

removed before the vehicle enters

the track. Failure to do so will

prevent the pull cable from

operating!

 

SPA:

� SAFETY WARNING Failure to remove

safety pin will render the system

inoperable when required.

 

Firecharger:

Please make sure all safety pins are in place and only removed at the

track to avoid accidental discharge during maintenance or moving. Please remember that the safety pins need to be removed while the

car is on the track in order for the system to operate.

[BADVENM]

Up until 2 years ago I would always forget to remove the pin. When I did remember I was on track and strapped in.

 

Since then I've always pulled the pin before getting on track.

 

I can see both sides. However, if I get in a crash that produces considerable smoke (we've seen those videos and heard first hand accounts the past year or so), so much that the driver is trying to exit the car with his eyes closed to avoid smoke in the yes, the last thing I want to try and figure out is where the pin is and trying to pull it so I can then pull the lever for the fire suppressant. Granted it may only take a second to pull the pin and then the lever, but that extra second could be a difference.

 

Also interesting to see where the cutoff switch is located.

 

EDIT: when I sent my reply I got this message

 

Ran into problems sending Mail. Response: 452 4.3.1 Insufficient system storage

 

DEBUG MODE

 

Line : 143

File : smtp.php

[Dustin M.]

My concern here would be remembering to repin after a race. It would be a bitch to police, unless maybe pulling the pin becomes part of the GTFO of your burning car drill?

[soundguydave1548534741]

Personally, I would avoid ANY extra steps involved in exiting a flaming vehicle.

 

Master off, get stopped.

hit the fire handle

Pop the belts

Drop the net

bail out.

 

By adding an extra step (remove pin) it sounds to me like you could be adding an extra 20% to the workload, and in those circumstances, that may not be a good thing.

 

Also, what about the scenario involving a corner worker trying to extricate you and having to fumble around to see if the pull is pinned or not before trying to actually put out the fire?

 

On the CMC car, we've got twin pulls, one in the passenger window, and the other on the trans tunnel.

 

I'm putting a fire bottle in the enduro car for next season (S197 chassis), and I'm planning on dual pulls there, as well. First on the A-piller right below the master switch just inside the window opening on the driver's side, and the second on the B-pillar on the passenger side, again just inside the window opening. I'm also leaving the hand-held in place, as well.

[cozog1548534733]

Also, what about the scenario involving a corner worker trying to extricate you and having to fumble around to see if the pull is pinned or not before trying to actually put out the fire?

 

Most important issue here. Forget about what YOU are doing after a crash... what about the first responders (could be another driver, i.e. the Jim Pantas vid at 2012 nat'ls), especially if you are incapacitated or unconscious. IMHO, safety systems in a race car need to be as simple to use as possible.

[cozog1548534733]

Also, what about the scenario involving a corner worker trying to extricate you and having to fumble around to see if the pull is pinned or not before trying to actually put out the fire?

 

Most important issue here. Forget about what YOU are doing after a crash... what about the first responders (could be another driver, i.e. the Jim Pantas vid at 2012 nat'ls), especially if you are incapacitated or unconscious. IMHO, safety systems in a race car need to be as simple to use as possible.

[FBody383]

Master off, get stopped.

hit the fire handle

Pop the belts

Drop the net

bail out.

 

I run with the pin IN the handle.

 

The handle is right at the headlight switch and there is a "remove before flight" flag on the pin.

 

I've thought about it often and when in grid before a race go through a "checklist" that includes acknowledging I will need to pull the pin to activate the bottle.

[wastntim]

I have my two pull cords in easy reach for corner workers. I would not want to have to rely on them reaching deep into a burning car to activate my extinguisher, no less make them try to figure out there is a pin somewhere.

 

As Todd said, make the corner workers job as easy as possible.

 

I'd much rather have to deal with an accidental discharge of an extinguisher than it not working for whatever reason. You can clean a car up, but third degree burns or worse yet, is not so easy to fix.

 

BTW, I had the pleasure of driving the world's fastest bubble maker when my canister slid in the holder and slightly pressed down the handle causing my entire car to fill with 4 inches of foam at Road America. Ever seen bubbles flying out of a race car's windows at 120mph? It's an interesting site to say the least.

[MHISSTC]

My concern here would be remembering to repin after a race. It would be a bitch to police, unless maybe pulling the pin becomes part of the GTFO of your burning car drill?

 

It's no more or less difficult to do or remember than hood pins, and can easily be incorporated into your pre and post-grid checklist when the process can be done at a leisurely pace before and after the race, instead of while you're in auto-panic mode during an on-track emergency. Flagging the pin with a "remove before flight" type ribbon is a handy reminder to remove them during your pre/post grid/race checklist.

 

While I like the idea of having a dual set of actuators for both the master switch and fire system, one for the driver inside the car and one for safety workers outside the car, my concern with that would be protecting the actuators during an accident or rollover. I think the best compromise situation would be to provide a clearly labeled actuation point for them both at the dash or in some type of cage mounted tab just inside the window opening on the driver side.

 

While centering these actuation points smack dab in the center of the dash, or somewhere else like the driveshaft tunnel may look good, provide easy driver access, and de-clutter other portions of the dash or egress area, I don't think they are the most conducive for safety worker access if the need arises.

 

safety systems in a race car need to be as simple to use as possible.

 

avoid ANY extra steps involved in exiting a flaming vehicle.

 

Those quotes sum up exactly what I'm trying to get at here.

 

EDIT: Obviously, I had more issues posting with error messages showing with my actual posts showing up later. Somebody please delete the following duplicates since I can't seem to do that either.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Guest

[MHISSTC]

duplicate

Edited December 18, 2013 by Guest

[MHISSTC]

duplicate

Edited December 18, 2013 by Guest

[MHISSTC]

duplicate

Edited December 18, 2013 by Guest

[MHISSTC]

duplicate

Edited December 18, 2013 by Guest

[MHISSTC]

duplicate

[CMC#11]

I am a little confused as to why the big deal if someone runs with their fire system pinned or not.

Running a fire system is not a requirement, it is an option. I don't have a fire system in my car so I don't even have the option to "pull a pin". From a legality standpoint, I don't see a problem.

 

From a personal choice standpoint, well that is a personal choice.

 

How many people race with the pin pulled from their handheld fire bottle?

[cozog1548534733]

How many people race with the pin pulled from their handheld fire bottle?

 

I do, and after almost setting my car on fire (grass under it was burning), I'd never run with pins in. What if you bend the pin while racing/crashing or getting the bottle out of the car? I know it's a very small chance of happening, but those few extra seconds of dicking around with a pin could be the difference between a burnt carcass of a car or just a shortened race.

[MHISSTC]

I am a little confused as to why the big deal if someone runs with their fire system pinned or not.

Running a fire system is not a requirement, it is an option. I don't have a fire system in my car so I don't even have the option to "pull a pin". From a legality standpoint, I don't see a problem.

 

From a personal choice standpoint, well that is a personal choice.

 

How many people race with the pin pulled from their handheld fire bottle?

 

The intent wasn't to make this into a big deal, but I wanted to hear other's opinions about it.

 

I've installed both fire extinguishers and AFFF fire systems and have been fortunate enough so far in that I have not needed to use either. All of the instructions I have found with the fire systems clearly state the safety pin should be removed before track operation, so that has been my method of operation. I assumed others would follow the manufacturers instructions similarly.

 

A person may argue that the statement to remove the safety pin is merely put into the instructions to limit the liability of the manufacturer in case the person is somehow unable to operate the system because they forgot about the pin, but the choice to use it or not is still up to the user. My response to that is if there is a way to misuse a product, folks will always find a way to do it. If the manufacturer has to put a statement in the instructions to limit their liability, then there clearly must have been folks who have done it. I don't want to be one of those folks, so I remove the pin.

 

Fire system or fire extinguisher, my opinion is still that the pin should be pulled for track time.

[Dustin M.]

Honestly I'd never given much thought to the pin being in or out (again, not building a car biting me in the ass like with the whole dash thing), but this does remind me that I want to add a fire extinguisher to the mix too. The car's light enough as it is. I suppose creating a pre/post race checklist is something I should consider, up until now I've just been checking stuff at the track as it crosses my mind. I'm quite thorough before I get to the track though.

[MHISSTC]

Honestly I'd never given much thought to the pin being in or out (again, not building a car biting me in the ass like with the whole dash thing), but this does remind me that I want to add a fire extinguisher to the mix too. The car's light enough as it is. I suppose creating a pre/post race checklist is something I should consider, up until now I've just been checking stuff at the track as it crosses my mind. I'm quite thorough before I get to the track though.

 

If you're really serious about it, actually having written checklists for everything will keep you from having mental lapses and prevent you from leaving anything important out. Develop your checklists over time. As you think of something, write it out and add, subtract, and combine steps as you think of them and they become relevant or irrelevant. Once developed and used for a period of time, don't assume you've done them enough times to have them memorized and stop using them. There's a reason pilots, NASA (the real NASA), and real race teams use checklists all the time, every time.

[Dustin M.]

If you're really serious about it, actually having written checklists for everything will keep you from having mental lapses and prevent you from leaving anything important out. Develop your checklists over time. As you think of something, write it out and add, subtract, and combine steps as you think of them and they become relevant or irrelevant. Once developed and used for a period of time, don't assume you've done them enough times to have them memorized and stop using them. There's a reason pilots, NASA (the real NASA), and real race teams use checklists all the time, every time.

 

We live and die by the checklist in my line of work too, but I'd never felt the need to generate one for the track. things are different now, and details are becoming more important. Having a system is the only way to save me from myself, would you mind if I bothered you for your checklist to see things I might not have considered?

[MHISSTC]

...would you mind if I bothered you for your checklist to see things I might not have considered?

 

I never got back to you on this.

With a little online searching, you'll find several versions of these out there different places. Below is a link to ones that are better than anything we currently use. Develop/modify your own based one something like these and you'll be better off than most.

 

http://www.aicmctexas.com/showthread.php?3057-Car-Checklist-Sheet-amp-Chassis-Sheet