Ideas for a new classing system.

[Robb]

One of the things I disliked about SCCA (among many) so much that made me jump ship to NASA was the crazy number of classes, and the idea that run groups were made up of so many different classes that most of the time you weren't even racing against other cars in you own class, but maybe cars of 3 or 4 different ones.

 

So I had an idea. After reading through all the class rules that NASA has, and there are a bunch of them, the common denominator seems to be the weight to power ratio equation. IMHO, the GTS classing system seems to make the most sense, in that they use torque and HP in determining power. So why not class every production car ever made in a similar manner? The equation is simple: [(Average Torque + Average HP)/2]/weight. There would probably need to be something like 8 or 12 divisions to keep things close within each class, but that would allow many different makes of cars to compete directly with each other instead of all fragmented within a run group. Run groups could consist of only 1 or maybe 2 classes. GT type tube framed cars and formula cars could also be classes similarly.

 

To summarize:

1. Eliminate all current classes and race series, i.e. HC, GTS, PS, CMC, etc, etc.

2. Create new classes based solely on power to weight ratio using the formula [(Av. TQ+Av. HP)/2]/Weight. Call the classes A, B, C, etc., or Super, Hi-Po, Lo-Po, whatever. All are now production car classes, GT and formula cars have thier own classes using the same weight to power ratios.

So, it might look like this:

P1=5.99 or better

P2=6.00 to 7.99

P3=8.00 to 9.99

P4=10.00 to 11.99

P5=12.00 to 13.99

P6=14.00 to 15.99

P7=16.00 to 17.99

P8=18.00 to 19.99

P9=20.00 and higher

3. NASA CCR car prep and safety rules apply, otherwise, you are free to build and modify your car any way you'd like.

4. Everyone on DOT tires, or you go into a GT class if you run full race slicks.

 

The benefits I see include easier tech, after all the tech guys/gals will need to check only for safety, not specific parts, assemblies, sizes, etc. Each race will be made up of cars that are actually racing each other for class position, not a bunch of different classes thrown together to fill the grid. Lots of different makes and models filling each class. Ability of cars to up-classed or down-classed as the driver's abilities and finances allow.

 

I know it might seem wacky as a whole, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see what the members think, genious, stupid, whatever.

 

Fire away!

[RJSmith]

I think that could work but the HC and CMC classes are well feilded in them selves. Now you could do away with very thing else. The formal and tube cars are good the way they are. The thing is that alot of the classes that out now are based on what cars and how many there were at one time, not what cars and how many are out now. Now you have to leave the maitas in there own class and run them by them selves because there are lot and also they are slower than alot of the other cars, they just get in the way alot of the time. That class is a fully class every weekend so they should be able to run on their own. Same with the 944's but the PS classes and other like it, Spec SRE, Neon, Srt-4, some on, classes with one or two cars need to be put in a class that they run with more cars, like you are saying, but don't do away with all the classes.

[racercosmo]

The biggest problem is that weight/power does not mean equal performance.

[Greg G.]

Cosmo got it 100% correct. Which car would you rather race in, a Cadillac STS-V with 469hp and weighing 4233#, or a Porsche 997 C4S with 355hp and weighing 3252# (or if you don't want to mix an RWD with AWD comparison, how about a Ferrari Testarossa with 390 hp and weighing 3660#). All of them have the same wt/hp ratio.

 

Power to weight ratios are a good tool for helping to class cars, but you must also take into account, total weight, suspension design, chassis stiffness, size, roll center, transmission/gearing, brakes, aerodynamics, and others. Using the method you described, you would end up with very expensive cars. The winner of each class would be the guy that chose a lightweight car and then spent the most on modifying the above factors. I don't think that is what any of us would like to see or participate in.

 

Our Time Trial rules do use wt/hp ratios to help us class cars, but we also look at all of the factors I've listed. Then even after a car has a base class, we screen it individually and assess it points for over 100 possible modifications to determine it's final class.

 

Oh, and the answer to the next question is, "Yes, we could."

[Robb]

Yeah, I did think of that, but I couldn't come up with a way to include an overall "size" into the equation. I was thinking in terms of the race cars I've owned from a Dodge Mirada Sportsman Stock Car, to a IT VW Golf , to my current CMC project. All of them have remarkably simliar weight to power ratios, but are wildly different in size and handling components.

Oh well, it was just a thought.

[Biggie]

Robb, your idea might have worked if everyone was forced to use the same rules to heavily limit modifications like the USTCC does. Every car in the USTCC also utilizes a spec Hankook 235/40-17 DOT tire. Good luck getting everyone in NASA to do all that... If it happens, I'm sure Hankook will at least buy you lunch!

 

A better idea would be to use a restrictor of some kind. A restrictor formula based on weight and displacement along with a standard set of rules is an easy way to standardize performance across a class.

[Robb]

That's probably true. Anyway, if you read the formula through, you'll see that it's not based on HP to weight alone, nor on peak HP and peak torque alone. The formula is Average HP+ Average TQ/2 then divided by weight. The 'average' is the important part of this equation. You can measure at 500 rpm intervals (or 100 or 25 or whatever) over the rpm range, and you'll likely get vastly different numbers than the peak specs. Small, high revving engines may make a lot of horsepower, but don't make a lot of torque. Since HP = RPM*TQ/5252, you can plainly see that these numbers will become alot closer than a quick glance at peaks would suggest. As Greg G. stated, the variable then becomes brakes and all the other variables he described more than the power to weight.

[wm577]

Sort of OT. but I would love to see one big class for all FWD, NA, 2door, 4-bangers. (Sport Compact Touring) or something. Rules similar to HC, but let non-honda's come play.

 

I know in drag racing the NOPI sport compact class is huge, and I think road racing could use something similar

[bpanther]

Sort of OT. but I would love to see one big class for all FWD, NA, 2door, 4-bangers. (Sport Compact Touring) or something. Rules similar to HC, but let non-honda's come play.

 

I know in drag racing the NOPI sport compact class is huge, and I think road racing could use something similar

 

Why don't these cars just go race in USTCC ?

[wm577]

USTCC is a national class with races all over the US, is it not? Most people just want to race in their region and not travel that much.

[Biggie]

They once had a regional version of the USTCC. It used the USTCC rules, but it isn't listed on the NASA homepage anymore?

 

This would be the best possible solution to some of the questions raised above. And it would make an easy transition for drivers wanting to take their team to the next level. If you are basically running a USTCC legal car in regional events, you could just enter any USTCC races when they were in your area or when budget permitted started attending all the east or west coast events.