2006 TT RULES published 1-5-06

[GAC]

 

You may want to check a little more on this Greg(I'll try to) becuase these car are known to weigh well over 3600lbs My car should run with 70% of the interior removed(+4 to + which should put me at 3300lbs. Now if i go with the weight option, i could only have a +1 or 2 point total for a gutted car.

 

This would not change my class but it could make it unfair for other's! Just an FYI

 

Thanks Greg

 

Wow, an honorable competitor. I commend you, good sir. Integrity rules! Keep in mind that you may have added some things on the car that increased weight. My car has quite a bit of weight added despite the A/C and a couple of other things being removed.

[firehawkclone]

 

You may want to check a little more on this Greg(I'll try to) becuase these car are known to weigh well over 3600lbs My car should run with 70% of the interior removed(+4 to + which should put me at 3300lbs. Now if i go with the weight option, i could only have a +1 or 2 point total for a gutted car.

 

This would not change my class but it could make it unfair for other's! Just an FYI

 

Thanks Greg

 

Wow, an honorable competitor. I commend you, good sir. Integrity rules! Keep in mind that you may have added some things on the car that increased weight. My car has quite a bit of weight added despite the A/C and a couple of other things being removed.

 

There is no other way to be, but an "honorable competitor with integrity"

 

I just added a few cooler's, but had removed much more last year.

[Jeffrey]

There is no other way to be, but an "honorable competitor with integrity"

 

I just added a few cooler's, but had removed much more last year.

 

Sure, it's better to win with the pride in knowing that it's because you were better than the other guys, rather than knowing that you had an unfair advantage.

 

Speaking of which, thanks for letting me borrow a lot of your tools last time at Buttonwillow, John! That was really generous of you.

 

You added coolers? You mean you had an ice chest in your back seat? Is that why you were so slow?

 

-Jeff

[Greg G.]

Greg,

 

An NX2000 friend of mine in Ohio found what looks like a part of the rules in need of further clarification. He has a header (+2) as well as a catback (+1). Ostensibly, this would give him a +3, but the rules show that an exhaust system that goes from the header back is +2. What's in question is the exhaust piping from the cat to the header here. The headers for our cars come as a primary and a secondary and bolt right up to the cat. Does that mean he would take +2 for the header AND +2 for catback because the header actually goes all the way to the cat? I originally thought it was simply +3, but after further reading, some clarification would be helpful. Thanks!

 

EDIT: If you had two cats and went to one, would you take a single point, or no points because you still have a cat?

 

He would take +4 points if he leaves the catalytic converter on the car, and +5 if he removes it. (rule 30 +2, rule 32 +2, and then rule 34 +1 if he takes the cat off).

 

Rule 34) "Removal, upgrade, or modification of the catalytic converter(s). +1 If you had two cats, and went to one, you had to remove one if my math is correct +1

[Greg G.]

Hi Greg,

 

Could you please tell me what you used for vehicle weight for a 1992 Nissan 240SX. Thanks.

2700 lbs.

 

How about for the 95-96 240SX?

 

No change in engine/hp, so you get to use 2700 lbs also.(a small gift for the '95, a little bigger for the '96). If there had been a change in the hp between the years, you would have used the actual curb weight to ensure a consistant wt/hp ratio within the "model group" of Nissan 240SX's base classed in TTF.

[GAC]

He would take +4 points if he leaves the catalytic converter on the car, and +5 if he removes it. (rule 30 +2, rule 32 +2, and then rule 34 +1 if he takes the cat off).

 

Rule 34) "Removal, upgrade, or modification of the catalytic converter(s). +1 If you had two cats, and went to one, you had to remove one if my math is correct +1

 

Haha, you are the math master! Hmmm, are there many headers that DON'T come with a secondary? If not, shouldn't all headers be +3?

[Greg G.]

And I have been looking all over the web for an accurate curb weight for a 95 firebird. I came up with 3311lb, but the car weighed 3450lb(w 3/4 tank no driver) last year at WSR. With 150lbs removed from the car all ready.

 

EDIT:GVWR is 4239 max passenger load is 701, So 3538lb is my curb weight?

One more ? on tire width, my car came with 245/50/16 im running 315/17 so thats a 70mm increase in width, which is +5 right?

John,

NHTSA says that your car has a curb weight of 3408 lbs. Edmunds says it is 3373. We used 3408 lbs to classify it, so use that as your curb weight for calculations. Also, if your car weighed 3450 with some gas missing and already 150 lbs of weight reduction, I would check under the fenders and in the quarter panels. You may have a family of racoons living in that beast.

 

You have the tire width mod points correct. +5 for going from 245's to 315's.

 

You may want to check a little more on this Greg(I'll try to) becuase these car are known to weigh well over 3600lbs My car should run with 70% of the interior removed(+4 to + which should put me at 3300lbs. Now if i go with the weight option, i could only have a +1 or 2 point total for a gutted car.

 

This would not change my class but it could make it unfair for other's! Just an FYI

 

Thanks Greg

 

No, you are good to go John. We have some of the later models at 3500, but not yours. Maybe they measured the curb weights without A/C (probably, if it was a factory option). Also, you may have more bling options on your car than you think compared to the base model that we use for curb weights (? power windows, door locks, upgraded seats, etc). The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) are the ones that do the crash tests on cars, so it's likely that they have the correct number, especially with backup by Edmunds (with a lower number). Also, we classified your car based on that number, so if it is wrong, and you actually are supposed to weigh 200 lbs more, then we probably overclassed you by a 5-pt * anyway. Thanks for the heads up, though.

[Greg G.]

He would take +4 points if he leaves the catalytic converter on the car, and +5 if he removes it. (rule 30 +2, rule 32 +2, and then rule 34 +1 if he takes the cat off).

 

Rule 34) "Removal, upgrade, or modification of the catalytic converter(s). +1 If you had two cats, and went to one, you had to remove one if my math is correct +1

 

Haha, you are the math master! Hmmm, are there many headers that DON'T come with a secondary? If not, shouldn't all headers be +3?

No, I think we are good at +5 for a total exhaust upgrade with cat delete, +4 for a total exhaust upgrade with cat, +2 for headers alone, +2 for exhaust downstream from headers with cat, and +1 for catback only.

[GAC]

No, I think we are good at +5 for a total exhaust upgrade with cat delete, +4 for a total exhaust upgrade with cat, +2 for headers alone, +2 for exhaust downstream from headers with cat, and +1 for catback only.

 

Well, if an SE-R guy does a header, it comes with a primary and a secondary, and he potentially might not have a catback. In that case the header, which DOES go back to the cat, would be a +3?

[Greg G.]

No, I think we are good at +5 for a total exhaust upgrade with cat delete, +4 for a total exhaust upgrade with cat, +2 for headers alone, +2 for exhaust downstream from headers with cat, and +1 for catback only.

 

Well, if an SE-R guy does a header, it comes with a primary and a secondary, and he potentially might not have a catback. In that case the header, which DOES go back to the cat, would be a +3?

If I took a look at it, and the secondary looked anything like another car's "downpipe", etc. then it would actually just fall into the +4 group, with a pretty strange set-up to reduce all that restriction from an exhaust manifold, and then choke it with a cat and stock cat-back. Do you know of anyone that actually does this? Sounds not so good to me. .... Dan, did you do this (cuz I'm already laughing just thinking that you might have)?

[Greg G.]

Just kidding. I know you didn't.

[GAC]

LOL Greg, I swear to god I haven't done this. An SE-R guy called me today from Ohio seeking clarification. I promised him I'd ask. I don't have any points to put any power adders on my car with the current plan.

 

In all seriousness, for all the SE-R guys, it sounds like a header will cost +4 with or without the catback. Do I have that about right?

 

If you go the link below and click on sr20de race header a picture will appear in the top frame. That's a pic of a typical SE-R header.

 

http://www.hotshot.com/main_new.html

[Greg G.]

We got rid of the +1 downpipe rule from last year because too many people were confused by it. We figured that just about anyone changing the exhaust prior to the cat, is also going to change it post cat, even if they leave the cat on. I don't know anyone with an SRT4 that would spend the money to put a bigger downpipe on it, and leave the stock cat-back. I guess the question is, does it help much to put a header on an SE-R and leave the stock cat-back? Is the stock cat-back not restrictive? From the rules standpoint, it would be much cleaner if they just had to take the +4, but I would certainly consider a +1 pt. waiver for the header and secondary only.

[Pat L.]

ARGH! After chatting with Greg, I found out a useful piece of information regarding my ECU programming and I wanted to bring it to the forum's attention:

 

I have to take more points because my ECU can be programmed, though not at the track. Pretty much all the sensitive fields of the programming can be adjusted throgh a reflash at the shop which does the motor work on my car. Last year it didn't matter because I had tons of points to spare, but this year it might tip me into TTU. This is obviously more important for guys running turbos/superchargers and as easily as I glossed over the nuances of the rule, maybe some other folks did as well.

[Greg G.]

ARGH! After chatting with Greg, I found out a useful piece of information regarding my ECU programming and I wanted to bring it to the forum's attention:

 

I have to take more points because my ECU can be programmed, though not at the track. Pretty much all the sensitive fields of the programming can be adjusted throgh a reflash at the shop which does the motor work on my car. Last year it didn't matter because I had tons of points to spare, but this year it might tip me into TTU. This is obviously more important for guys running turbos/superchargers and as easily as I glossed over the nuances of the rule, maybe some other folks did as well.

 

Pat is correct. The +9 (for turbo/ s/c) reprogrammable chip or aftermarket computer rule is for all reprogrammable systems that can be used to fine tune an engine. This can be fine tuning at a dyno shop, on the street, or at the track. It is for systems where somebody is evaluating your car, and choosing specific amounts of timing advancement or fuel input at a given RPM. A "generic" reflash or non-reprogrammable chip is one that is sold in bulk, without any fine tuning ability for your specific car's set-up, or adjustments for different weather conditions. So, even if you have to go back to the shop and pay them another $300-$1000 to "reflash" your ECU again, what they are doing is fine tuning a reprogrammable chip or ECU. So, you take the +9. An example of a +4 reflash or chip would be the Mopar stage 2 ECU for the SRT4. The "reflash" is only done by Mopar. Nobody else has the computer code to reprogram it. It is sold in bulk to thousands of owners--all identical. And it is not tuned specifically to any one car's set-up (air intake, exhaust, other mods).

[firehawkclone]

No, you are good to go John. We have some of the later models at 3500, but not yours. Maybe they measured the curb weights without A/C (probably, if it was a factory option). Also, you may have more bling options on your car than you think compared to the base model that we use for curb weights (? power windows, door locks, upgraded seats, etc). The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) are the ones that do the crash tests on cars, so it's likely that they have the correct number, especially with backup by Edmunds (with a lower number). Also, we classified your car based on that number, so if it is wrong, and you actually are supposed to weigh 200 lbs more, then we probably overclassed you by a 5-pt * anyway. Thanks for the heads up, though.

 

Thanks Greg, My car maybe over classed, but it wouldn't fit in E with ** either.

 

This will be my first year with TT, so i'm not to worried that my car is over classed. I just want to go run against the clock, get use to a rule's package, and stay having fun

 

I am running against a 98/02 Camaro(with 1 *) that is lighter (and alot better car) and has 80hp on me I don't think a set of Kuhmo's will do much for me here

 

Jeff, anytime buddy ALL are welcomed! I have SPEED Channel

[phoenixR34]

So, even if you have to go back to the shop and pay them another $300-$1000 to "reflash" your ECU again, what they are doing is fine tuning a reprogrammable chip or ECU. So, you take the +9.

 

I know you can look in the back of Car and Driver and see "Performance Chips" which are general retunes for a bunch of vehicles. I'm assuming that's what you're talking about with the "generic" reflash.

 

Another way is to email the company, tell them the mods you have and they will either send you a new ECU or you can take it down there and have the car reflashed. Is this considered a "fine tune" (+9) ECU?

 

For most Japanese cars they don't have generic reflashes, most people use the 2nd method because that's all that exists.

 

I don't care either way, just want to make sure I understand this correctly before doing anything to my car.

[jrerin]

Greg,

 

The only problem that I still have with the ECU is the fact that as an example........ MOPAR probably spent 100's of thousands of dollars in R and D to do the reflashes for the different stages of the SRT 4. Subaru, Mitsubishi and Audi do not offer a stage kit or factory reflash. As we have spoke about this B4 there is also the issue of reflash and a piggy back system being run in parallel. Do you know of any manufactures that offer what Dodge does for the stage kits or is Mopar the only one? If we have to be assessed more points for the type of reflash that we have than the "reflash + Piggyback" has to be assessed more. Also while our ECU,s offer the ability to be tweaked any time at the shop some people might only get the simple reflash and not want to spend the money to get more in depth reflashes done and they will be penalized. Also we are being assessed the same points that someone with a Motec or AEM system would be assessed. Motec would run $3500 for the ECU and wire harness and then you would have to pay for the tuning.....

 

Russ

[jrerin]

DUDE,

 

 

IF we get a point for rotors, point for pads and a point for calipers maybe we should separate front and rear when it comes to assessing points for the "brake components". Some cars do both and some cars only do the front.... It seems not quite fair that if you only do the front you have to take the same points as someone who does the whole car?????? We all know that most of the braking is in the front but if replacing the rear was not an advantage as well then know one would do it..... We assess points for front and rear strut towed bars separately how about doing it for the sway bars as well..... not to mention the brakes.

 

Russ

[firehawkclone]

You do have the choice of not doing the ECU & brake mod's to your car!

 

I get extra points for my Kuhmo's, they are the faster tire when NEW! But they drop off big time, but the RA1 stay the same for the life of the tire!

 

It's not fair, but it's not easy to be fair across the board!

 

Just an FYI

[Greg G.]

So, even if you have to go back to the shop and pay them another $300-$1000 to "reflash" your ECU again, what they are doing is fine tuning a reprogrammable chip or ECU. So, you take the +9.

 

I know you can look in the back of Car and Driver and see "Performance Chips" which are general retunes for a bunch of vehicles. I'm assuming that's what you're talking about with the "generic" reflash.

 

Another way is to email the company, tell them the mods you have and they will either send you a new ECU or you can take it down there and have the car reflashed. Is this considered a "fine tune" (+9) ECU?

 

For most Japanese cars they don't have generic reflashes, most people use the 2nd method because that's all that exists.

 

I don't care either way, just want to make sure I understand this correctly before doing anything to my car.

If you send away for a new ECU after telling the company your mods, you would be +4. However, if you then test the car, send the ECU back and ask for more of this or that, you are fine tuning still. If you go down to the shop and they plug your ECU into a computer, zap it and tell you to have a nice day, that's +4. If they then start your engine, test the car (wide band, drive it, whatever), and then make you a new program, that's fine tuning. +9 (for turbo and s/c). A good tuner can get an extra 40-50 hp out of a car, but just as good as that, can get you a sweet dyno curve, and max the engine out to the just shy of the unsafe level. That's what you are paying the extra +5 for.

[phoenixR34]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Greg G.]

Greg,

 

MOPAR probably spent 100's of thousands of dollars in R and D to do the reflashes for the different stages of the SRT 4. Subaru, Mitsubishi and Audi do not offer a stage kit or factory reflash. As we have spoke about this B4 there is also the issue of reflash and a piggy back system being run in parallel. Do you know of any manufactures that offer what Dodge does for the stage kits or is Mopar the only one? If we have to be assessed more points for the type of reflash that we have than the "reflash + Piggyback" has to be assessed more. Also while our ECU,s offer the ability to be tweaked any time at the shop some people might only get the simple reflash and not want to spend the money to get more in depth reflashes done and they will be penalized. Also we are being assessed the same points that someone with a Motec or AEM system would be assessed. Motec would run $3500 for the ECU and wire harness and then you would have to pay for the tuning.....

Russ

 

Mopar spend hundreds of thousands on the SRT4 stage ECU's--that's a big joke . Like I said above, some guys go and get a good tune, with the same exact mechanical parts, and gain 50+ hp (Do you know anyone that might fit that description--try a mirror ) Granted, it would definitely be better to have the easy adjustability and data logging of a Motec that you could also adjust for changes in the weather, altitude, etc. You will get some gains that way if you know what you are doing. But you only need to get a good fine tune done once, and you are also pretty well set up. A generic reflash, like the Mopar, for example, does not take into account air intake and exhaust mods, variances in your specific engine and fuel system, additional mods like a MAP clamp, and they tune the car way too safely to make sure that they don't start getting a bunch of blown up engines from kids over-revving them, etc.

 

I do agree that having the ability to make adjustments at the track is beneficial to some with the right knowledge, and maybe we should have separated them out for even more points.

[Greg G.]

DUDE,

IF we get a point for rotors, point for pads and a point for calipers maybe we should separate front and rear when it comes to assessing points for the "brake components". Some cars do both and some cars only do the front.... It seems not quite fair that if you only do the front you have to take the same points as someone who does the whole car?????? We all know that most of the braking is in the front but if replacing the rear was not an advantage as well then know one would do it..... We assess points for front and rear strut towed bars separately how about doing it for the sway bars as well..... not to mention the brakes.

Russ

Brakes are almost free, because we are encouraging folks to get good brakes--front, rear, pads, rotors, calipers--all help to keep guys from hitting me when we are about to enter a corner together and I'm on the outside That, is a good thing.

 

Sway bars and strut tower bars are not the same animals. If you add one strut tower bar, it helps. If you add a second strut tower bar, you make the car stiffer, it helps more. Depending on your car, you may benefit from removing one sway bar, replacing one, or replacing both. Different cars can get equal benefit from all three of the above cases. So, sway bars are +2 no matter which configuration is best for your car.

[GAC]

For you non-Subaru guys, you should know that there is a product called an Access Port, and is made by Cobb Tuning. They sell it with generic, "off-the shelf" maps like Greg is talking about. HOWEVER, it gives you the ability to flash your own ECU right there at the track and has several maps to choose from depending on the mods done to your car. They have many versions of maps for different parameters/gas, but are not specific to the actual individual car. You can easily switch between maps, though.

 

This would seem to be a hybrid, no? You can VERY easily load different maps right there at the track, but with the basic maps there's not a ton of fine tuning. Where would something like that fall under?