Lotus Elise Classification

[mrjeff]

First off, thanks for the Midwest event today at Orr Autosport, it was great to meet you guys and I'll see you at MAM and Blackhawk!

 

I have a question regarding the Elise. It is C* as it stands but im wondering if the sport pack does/doesnt affect the points of the car. The Elise sport pack is an option that contains stiffer shocks and springs and comes with R compound tires on forged rims. It is basically the same setup that comes stock on the Exige. So if the car comes standard with these shocks and tires, is there a penalty for either of them?

 

I ask because I am interested in converting my car to the sport pack, or buying some after market coilovers, but I am trying to plan this wisely for the TT, so a penalty for tires would make a difference. And if I have the stock shocks/springs and just add the r compound tires, I feel I would be at a disadvantage to the sport pack owners with their stiffer suspension but have identical point totals.

 

And one last question is camber, it is very easy to remove some shims from the front suspension to add some more camber to the car and I'm wondering if doing that would add points.

 

Thanks again for coming to the midwest (the western midwest). I'm looking forward to the season.

 

Jeff

[Greg G.]

First off, thanks for the Midwest event today at Orr Autosport, it was great to meet you guys and I'll see you at MAM and Blackhawk!

 

I have a question regarding the Elise. It is C* as it stands but im wondering if the sport pack does/doesnt affect the points of the car. The Elise sport pack is an option that contains stiffer shocks and springs and comes with R compound tires on forged rims. It is basically the same setup that comes stock on the Exige. So if the car comes standard with these shocks and tires, is there a penalty for either of them?

 

I ask because I am interested in converting my car to the sport pack, or buying some after market coilovers, but I am trying to plan this wisely for the TT, so a penalty for tires would make a difference. And if I have the stock shocks/springs and just add the r compound tires, I feel I would be at a disadvantage to the sport pack owners with their stiffer suspension but have identical point totals.

 

And one last question is camber, it is very easy to remove some shims from the front suspension to add some more camber to the car and I'm wondering if doing that would add points.

 

Thanks again for coming to the midwest (the western midwest). I'm looking forward to the season.

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say it's an option, then says "if it comes standard...." The Exige is classified an entire class higher than the Elise because of these upgrades as well as the better ground effects. Since all factory options must be assessed points, all owners with the sport pack will need to assess themselves points for all of the upgrades in that option group. So, you are free to add just the tires, just the shocks, whatever, and you will be at no points disadvantage to any other Elise owner.

 

As far as the camber question, the clear intent of the rule is to assess +2 points for any simple modification for camber adjustment. "Add, replace, or modify camber plates, camber bolts, steering knuckles, or struts for simple camber adjustment only +2" I believe that removing shims from the OEM suspension falls under this rule, since the car would no longer be in the OEM state. Thanks for asking.

[mrjeff]

Thanks for the reply and answering those questions. My mistake on the "it comes standard" what I meant to imply was if it comes as an option from the manufacturer if it is or is not figured in to the rating, like since the car was an option with r compound if it would still have the penalty.

 

So if the tires are assessed the +5, how would you assess the sport pack shocks/springs? They arent adjustable and they are still OEM, so technically they should have no adjustment?

 

Thanks again,

 

Jeff

[Greg G.]

6.4 OEM Definition, Updating and Backdating Rules

For the purposes of NASA TT points assessments, the term OEM will be defined as follows: Any part that is identical in size, shape, and functional characteristics compared to the part that originally came on the vehicle, from the manufacturer, as a standard feature of the base model as it is listed in section 6.2 Base Classifications (factory options and specialty model parts are considered non-OEM) or is listed as a standard replacement part by the OEM manufacturer....

 

Jeff,

If the Springs/Shocks are part of the Sport Package Option, then they are not "OEM", because they are not a standard feature of the base model as listed in the base classifications in 6.2. So, if the shocks are non-adjustable, provided they are not gas charged race shocks with aluminum body construction or removable body caps, or any type of ext. reservoir shock, then they would be assessed +2. The springs would be assessed another +2. If there is the addition of adjustable spring perches on the Sport Package, then the total would be +5 instead of +4. Also, remember that not all R-compounds are +5, some are +7.

[mrjeff]

6.4 OEM Definition, Updating and Backdating Rules

For the purposes of NASA TT points assessments, the term OEM will be defined as follows: Any part that is identical in size, shape, and functional characteristics compared to the part that originally came on the vehicle, from the manufacturer, as a standard feature of the base model as it is listed in section 6.2 Base Classifications (factory options and specialty model parts are considered non-OEM) or is listed as a standard replacement part by the OEM manufacturer....

 

Jeff,

If the Springs/Shocks are part of the Sport Package Option, then they are not "OEM", because they are not a standard feature of the base model as listed in the base classifications in 6.2. So, if the shocks are non-adjustable, provided they are not gas charged race shocks with aluminum body construction or removable body caps, or any type of ext. reservoir shock, then they would be assessed +2. The springs would be assessed another +2. If there is the addition of adjustable spring perches on the Sport Package, then the total would be +5 instead of +4. Also, remember that not all R-compounds are +5, some are +7.

 

 

Ahh, that makes sense, I didnt know the correct definition of OEM! That makes a big difference, probably enough to move me into the next class with what I had planned. The R compounds I had in mind are the Yoko A048 (that come standard on the sport pack which have tread on them so I figured that would make it +5) but you raise a new question, the tire size for the base car in front is 175 and the sport pack yokos go 195 in the front, so that would mean another +1 for under 21mm size adjustment, correct?

[Greg G.]

Ahh, that makes sense, I didnt know the correct definition of OEM! That makes a big difference, probably enough to move me into the next class with what I had planned. The R compounds I had in mind are the Yoko A048 (that come standard on the sport pack which have tread on them so I figured that would make it +5) but you raise a new question, the tire size for the base car in front is 175 and the sport pack yokos go 195 in the front, so that would mean another +1 for under 21mm size adjustment, correct?

Nope. (but this one you'll like). The rule is for greater than 21mm. So, you get the 195's up front for free. Anything wider would start costing you points. I should have written "greater than" for the first size upgrade in the rules, instead of putting the greater-than sign. Those signs can get confusing. I'll change that next year.

[mrjeff]

Ahh, that makes sense, I didnt know the correct definition of OEM! That makes a big difference, probably enough to move me into the next class with what I had planned. The R compounds I had in mind are the Yoko A048 (that come standard on the sport pack which have tread on them so I figured that would make it +5) but you raise a new question, the tire size for the base car in front is 175 and the sport pack yokos go 195 in the front, so that would mean another +1 for under 21mm size adjustment, correct?

Nope. (but this one you'll like). The rule is for greater than 21mm. So, you get the 195's up front for free. Anything wider would start costing you points. I should have written "greater than" for the first size upgrade in the rules, instead of putting the greater-than sign. Those signs can get confusing. I'll change that next year.

 

I do like! Greg, thanks for all the help, I appreciate it.

[AZELISE]

The Elise has a double A-Arm suspension. The camber is adjusted by the removal or addition of shims as described in the service manual. These are not camber plates like a strut type has. I would hazzard a guess that there should not be a penalty for this. Shaving the plinth would most likely add points. I assume that adjusting the suspension through its OEM designed alignment range would not add points, but I could not find this info in the rules. Anybody able to clarify?

 

By the way even if you remove all the shims on the front end of the Elise it still is not within the recomended Lotus settings because you still need more negative camber and there are no more shims to remove.

[GAC]

The Elise has a double A-Arm suspension. The camber is adjusted by the removal or addition of shims as described in the service manual. These are not camber plates like a strut type has. I would hazzard a guess that there should not be a penalty for this. Shaving the plinth would most likely add points. I assume that adjusting the suspension through its OEM designed alignment range would not add points, but I could not find this info in the rules. Anybody able to clarify?

 

By the way even if you remove all the shims on the front end of the Elise it still is not within the recomended Lotus settings because you still need more negative camber and there are no more shims to remove.

 

I'm curious. Using the shimming technique you describe results in what maximum negative camber setting?

[Greg G.]

The Elise has a double A-Arm suspension. The camber is adjusted by the removal or addition of shims as described in the service manual. These are not camber plates like a strut type has. I would hazzard a guess that there should not be a penalty for this. Shaving the plinth would most likely add points. I assume that adjusting the suspension through its OEM designed alignment range would not add points, but I could not find this info in the rules. Anybody able to clarify?

 

By the way even if you remove all the shims on the front end of the Elise it still is not within the recomended Lotus settings because you still need more negative camber and there are no more shims to remove.

 

What's the functional difference whether a car gets to make fine camber adjustments via plates, bolts, shims, or slots? Don't all of them give the same performance advantage over stock? If you are assessed the two points for the shimming method, and it's not enough negative camber you can still use one of the other methods without additional points, unless you need to alter the control arms themselves for the +4 mod (then, you would not take the +2 for shims in addition, just the +4).

Thanks.

[AZELISE]

Most Elises are delivered with zero camber and between zero and 4mm of shims per side. Using the method described in the OEM service manual (not just a technique) of setting the camber by removing shims that came with the car, I only ended up with -0.6 degrees camber per side but some end up with as much as -1 degree. Lotus calls for -0.1 degree and a range of -0.1 to -0.3. I am curious about the Corvettes, I have heard that they use the same method for camber adjustment and can adjust their ride height. How about: adding a rule regarding using the OEM service manual to adjust a car's geometry within its designed rage of adjustment. Or, not allowing any adjustment. I say this because a used car could have been aligned for better specs by the previous owner and the new owner could not replicate the delivered setup. Can I replace the shims to put my car within the Lotus specified range or do I have to guess how many shims were on each side?

[Greg G.]

Sure, you can put it back to -0.1 degree, but I wouldn't advise it. Those are street settings, with street tires. I haven't researched or tested the ideal alignment settings for your car, but I would bet that at least -1.0 degree of camber, and probably much more, would be a much better setup for most courses. Basically, any deviation from the factory specs, and you will get the +2 assessment.

[AZELISE]

Thanks for the info. I think I will take your advice and take the 2 point hit. The Elise has good camber curves but it drives a lot nicer without the shims.

 

On another subject could anyone clarify the following: If I remove the carpet from the trunk or anything else to lighten the car and it results in less than 100 pound difference do I have to take points. I searched for this but could not find a clear answer.

[Greg G.]

On another subject could anyone clarify the following: If I remove the carpet from the trunk or anything else to lighten the car and it results in less than 100 pound difference do I have to take points. I searched for this but could not find a clear answer.

Yes and no. It's the "anything else" part that is the key. Curb weights are generally measures of a car's weight with all fluids filled, and a full gas tank, and the jack and spare in the car. So, once you remove the jack and spare (required), and use up most of a tank of gas, you are getting pretty close to the 100 lbs. The amount of gas is determined by you. Basically, it's the least amount of gas that you will ever come off the track with. So, if I weigh your car when it comes off the track, it can be up to 100 pounds lighter than the curb weight that we have listed for it, without additional points (for cars using the alternate weight method).

[FocusTed]

Make sure window washer is filled. That could be up to 6 lbs.

[GAC]

Make sure window washer is filled. That could be up to 6 lbs.

 

Yes, Ted...we all know how you like to clean your windshield at 100 mph at Willow.

[AZELISE]

The Elise has no spare (except a 1 lb. Inflation can). The water is already drained from the washer reservoir (4 lbs.). I only have a 10.5 gallon tank that I won't go below 1/4 tank (48 lbs). So, light wheels, battery and catback (+1 point), parts removal etc. will hopefully get me down the weight I want. Thanks for all the information and help so quickly.

[loudes13]

So running an alignment other than factory spec is 2 pts? Most people tweak their suspensions settings some. Heck autocrossers run toe out in the front for better turn in. That would be 2pts if I understand this correctly.

 

2pt should be accessed if you changed something to alter the alignment - like strut mounts, crash bolts, removing A arm shimms on a vette.

 

Setting within range of factory adjustment, should be free.

 

Also, lowering a car, can add negative camber, enough to not be able to get it within factory range.

[Greg G.]

Allen,

I think that the major problem is that many cars do not have the ability to adjust camber to any degree (pun intended). While all cars can adjust toe, so there is no advantage, and therefore no reason to assess points for it. I suppose an alternative for next year would be to make all parts that are soley used to adjust and alter camber points-free for everyone. But, that will hurt the guys that want to run stock.(yes, there are some--especially cars with **'s or guys that autocross their cars in stock classes that even camber plates or bolts are illegal). There are always trade-offs. I think that it's worth 2 points to me to have lots of negative camber.

[AZELISE]

My two cents:

I am willing to take 2 points for the camber. I think the rules shouldn't change. This way it is easier for me to run solo2 and Time Trial with simple part swap (wheels, battery) and part addition/removal (washer reservoir). Otherwise I would need two cars. I am not aware of a modern street car that can't adjust toe, usually with the simple twist adjustment (and this should be point free). Camber changes in most cars require part swap, removal or addition with a trip to the alignment shop. Negative camber in my car greatly reduces lap time I am told.

[GAC]

If one is talking about contact patch maximization during outide tire loading in a turn, negative camber is a significant advantage as it allows the tire's patch to stand straight up and down when the suspension is compressed. I think camber plates are certainly worth the points. My $0.02.