Seeking rule clarification of 'non OEM' brake pads, rotors

[qjohn]

I couldn't find using search feature, so ask:

 

What is the prevailing interpretation of "non-oem" with regards to pads and rotors?

 

For my Mazda, do I have to use the exact factory part numbers to avoid incurring points? Or can I avoid points if the ones I use are dimensionally identical to the original parts -- i.e. if I go to pep boys and buy cheap rotors and pads. Most specifically, are points assessed for changing brake pad compound (for example using OEM sized performance compound pads in stock Mazda calipers with stock Mazda rotors )?

 

 

Thanks,

John Q

[firehawkclone]

Your pepboys rotors are no points, if there not C/D, slotted, cryo treated ect..

 

You would get +1 for the "racing" pad's(Hawk, Padgid, Carbotech ect..)

[Greg G.]

I couldn't find using search feature, so ask:

 

What is the prevailing interpretation of "non-oem" with regards to pads and rotors?

 

For my Mazda, do I have to use the exact factory part numbers to avoid incurring points? Or can I avoid points if the ones I use are dimensionally identical to the original parts -- i.e. if I go to pep boys and buy cheap rotors and pads. Most specifically, are points assessed for changing brake pad compound (for example using OEM sized performance compound pads in stock Mazda calipers with stock Mazda rotors )?Thanks,

John Q

Hi John,

If you buy "cheap rotors and pads" from an auto parts store that are dimensionally identical to OEM, and the pad compound is considered a generic non-performance compound, and the rotors are the same material, without added vents, dimples, slots, etc. then you don't need to take any points. These would fall under the "Definition of OEM" rules.

 

If you put OEM sized performance pads on your stock calipers and rotors, you just take +1 point. So, yes, a point is assessed for changing the brake pad compound. If you upgrade the rotors, then +1 more. And if you change out all three, then +3.

[zuperdave]

I couldn't find using search feature, so ask:

 

What is the prevailing interpretation of "non-oem" with regards to pads and rotors?

 

For my Mazda, do I have to use the exact factory part numbers to avoid incurring points? Or can I avoid points if the ones I use are dimensionally identical to the original parts -- i.e. if I go to pep boys and buy cheap rotors and pads. Most specifically, are points assessed for changing brake pad compound (for example using OEM sized performance compound pads in stock Mazda calipers with stock Mazda rotors )?

 

 

Thanks,

John Q

 

I don't think anyone would hit you with points for going backwards on parts quality/performance, but I wouldn't want to be on the track with you!

[qjohn]

OK, Thanks for the replies. I should have read the OEM definition in the rules more closely.

 

I don't plan to use cheap pads... but if I find myself in a tight points race and need to use that 1 point, I may be tempted to see if I can get 3 or 4 hot laps out of OEM pads. ("FORE!") I thought my days of fighting brake fade were past.

 

JQ

[loudes13]

So is the performance friction 'z-rated' off the shelf at autozone, 1 point?

 

I ran them the last 2 year on the M3 (no dust, lifetime warranty), they didn't work quite as good as the bmw pads, but no fade, and no dust.

 

I'd consider them again, especially to save a point...

[Greg G.]

So is the performance friction 'z-rated' off the shelf at autozone, 1 point?

 

I ran them the last 2 year on the M3 (no dust, lifetime warranty), they didn't work quite as good as the bmw pads, but no fade, and no dust.

 

I'd consider them again, especially to save a point...

I'll have to check with my brake specialist, but in general PF, Hawk, Porterfield, EBC etc pads are considered performance pads. If they are no dust, and lifetime warranty, that implies some upgrade in the pad material that could result in improved performance on the track, whether increased friction, or just prolonged duration before fade. I'll get back to this one.

[Greg G.]

So is the performance friction 'z-rated' off the shelf at autozone, 1 point?

 

From the Performance Friction website:

"Z-Rated® pads are an extension of the Carbon Metallic® brand, specifically engineered for high-performance and/or severe-duty usage. Whether you drive a BMW, Corvette, Honda or Mustang, or you tow tons of weight with an F350, Z-Rated® is engineered to deliver safety and performance under even the most severe conditions"

 

Yes +1 for Z-rated PF's.

[Kolia]

On a similar note,

 

Would replacing stock Brembo rotors on my 350Z Track with StopTech 2 pieces plain rotors count as a +1 upgrade? With no slots, no drilling not even zinc plating.

 

Would that upgrade be “free” since the Track edition already has a +7 points penalty to start with?

[Greg G.]

On a similar note,

 

Would replacing stock Brembo rotors on my 350Z Track with StopTech 2 pieces plain rotors count as a +1 upgrade? With no slots, no drilling not even zinc plating.

 

Would that upgrade be “free” since the Track edition already has a +7 points penalty to start with?

 

Do you want the good news first, or the bad news..........

 

The good news is that part of the assessment for the Track Model over the 350Z coupe base is the big Brembo brake kit, so you can change the rotors without an additional assessment.

 

Sorry, but the bad news is that the 350Z was not re-evaluated during the revision process, and there have been significant upgrades beginning with the '05 Track and 35th Anniversary models, that carried into the '06 base models. Under the current classifications, it would take a base '04 350Z about 17-20 mod points to "become" an '05+ 350Z Track Model, but there is only a one * difference. So, your car is underclassed, and will be adjusted now. The reason that the car is only being assessed two ** difference (15 pts) from the base '04 350Z is that some of the mods are there, but clearly not optimal for the points they cost (like the small front and rear spoilers, rear underbody diffusers that would basically cost +6, the same as "real" splitters, wings, and diffusers that would be actually worth +6. On the other hand, there is no points charge listed for the added Traction Control and Vehicle Dynamic Control that the later Track models have, that we usually adjust into base classifications. There is also a 50 lb curb weight difference in favor of the base 350Z to consider.

 

For any interested, here is a list of the differences between a 350Z Track ('05+), and a base 350Z that I found:

300 hp vs 287 hp

VLSD

Rear STB

Traction Control

Vehicle Dynamic Control

Front and Rear spoiler

Brembo big brake kit

Rear underbody diffusers

Aluminum wheels

Higher spring and damper rates

Increased curb weight by less than 50 #

 

So, here are the new classifications for the 350Z's:

 

Nissan 350Z ('03-'05)(287hp)---TTC

Nissan 350Z (35anniv, '06+)(300hp)---TTC*

Nissan 350Z Track Model ('03-'04)---TTC*

Nissan 350Z Track Model ('05+)---TTC**

 

All other trim versions will need to start at the base model level, and get assessed for their factory options individually by mod points.

 

And as a note to everyone. While it is not your job to report when you suspect that your car is underclassed based on obvious or multiple differences in similar models, and changes made for the '06 year, etc., you would be wise to do so. As you can see, at some point in the year, most inequities will eventually get reported by someone (probably your competitor, two weeks before Nationals ). This system is dynamic in that it is meant to make things as fair as possible between the competitors. And, as you can see, I have no problem making adjustments when gross inequities are found. We looked at thousands of models of cars in our research for the revisions, but there are probably over 15,000 different models out there in the past 30 years. We did not have the time to spend 1000 to 2000 hours researching and classifying cars. So, there certainly could be some other inequities hiding out there. We knew that eventually, someone would either self-report them, or a competitor would report them. So, my advise is to take care of them now, instead of getting a surprise later in the season.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Guest

[vinman]

Just to be clear, will my car (a NON COOPER 1275 car) be assessed the base 7pt penalty? I am in the process of figuring what mods I can still do to the car and stay in G. Those 7pts will go a long way considering what I've already done to the car!

Thanks,

Vince Pack

[Greg G.]

You never said it was a 1275

 

I classified the base Minis (1.0, 1.1) that had less than the 55hp Mini Cooper 1.0.

 

If you have the 54hp 1275, then it would go with the 55 hp Mini Cooper (TTH*) All of your valid issues regarding the differences in the Cooper vs base Minis had to do with the Cooper engines being stronger. Well, if you have 275 cc more displacement, and the same hp.......

[vinman]

If I remember correctly (NOW I'm having trouble recalling some of the specifics), the standard carbureted 1275 is about 50hp. Frankly, there is so much difference from car to car that came off the assembly line, I'm probably splititng hairs. You can dyno two identical Minis and one will have 10hp more than the other. Anyhow, the main thing I was concerned about (besides the symantics of using the Cooper name) was the 7pt penalty and whether my car had to keep it. The main engineering differences in the Cooper 1275 cars and the "regular" 1275s allowed for stronger eventual outputs. The logic was if you bought a Cooper or an S, then you probably would abuse the car more and modify it a little more extensively. The components used were just better - ie. the center main strap, the use of an EN6B alloy in the crank, that sort of stuff. Now, the S WAS a higher hp car for sure with the high lift rockers, double valve springs, etc. Basically, if you tell me that my "regular" 1275 has to endure the 7 pts, I'll suck it up.

 

That being said, I have a related question. I am going to have to have my block "redone". I will be replacing it so that I can keep the old one and have it to work on in the future. The new one will be within the factory overbore (18 thousandths). I will have a center main strap added since it makes everything hold up more reliably under strain - but doesn't enhance anything "performance" wise. Virtually everything else will be stock. Will I have to take a hit since it is being "modified"?

 

No one has yet answered my question whether or not these new TT classes apply to NASA-X. Is there a final word on that, yet?

 

I'll try to save any more questions for later when you've caught up with all the other stuff that's actually related to the updated rules. Thanks for taking time to address all my questions and concerns!

 

Vince Pack

[Greg G.]

Well, I've got the 1275 Cooper S classified, and the 55hp Cooper (998) classified, but really the 1275 Cooper isn't (if there is one). So, yes, with the 1275 base Mini, it would be TTH*. A Cooper version of the 1275 (non-S) would likely be TTH**. The Cooper 1275S is in TTG**. So, with the 55 hp Cooper in TTH*, and your 1275 being rated at 54hp (from what I found), they would be in the same class (TTH*).

 

As far as your engine rebuild is concerned. You may rebuild it to the first overbore as you've described. If you are just adding the main center strap for longevity, and not looking to use the added strength to increase current or eventual power output, and everything else is stock, then I won't assess points for it.

 

So, TTH* it is.

Thanks.

[vinman]

Your illustration of the points progression now makes perfect sense - THANKS!

 

Now, I'm starting to think you are artfully dodging the NASA-TT calculator for NASA-X question...

Is it, ain't it, or undetermined??

 

[Greg G.]

Now, I'm starting to think you are artfully dodging the NASA-TT calculator for NASA-X question...

 

Is it, ain't it, or undetermined??

 

Oh, yes. Remember when I said on the NASA-X forum that it would take a few weeks? I'm only about 4 days into that. There are issues that are being addressed before we can decide on which version of the NASA-X rules is the best for standardization. I do not expect the TT rules to be used for NASA-X. There is just too much stuff in there that is only pertinent to high speed road course driving. An example would perhaps be your car, which probably can beat some cars on an autocross course that would wipe you up on a big track like Willow Springs. So, stay tuned on the NASA-X site for further developments on the NASA-X rules.

[vinman]

gotcha - how soon I forget

 

thanks for everything!

 

Vince Pack

[Kolia]

For any interested, here is a list of the differences between a 350Z Track ('05+), and a base 350Z that I found:

300 hp vs 287 hp

VLSD

Rear STB

Traction Control

Vehicle Dynamic Control

Front and Rear spoiler

Brembo big brake kit

Rear underbody diffusers

Aluminum wheels

Higher spring and damper rates

Increased curb weight by less than 50 #

 

So, here are the new classifications for the 350Z's:

 

Nissan 350Z ('03-'05)(287hp)---TTC

Nissan 350Z (35anniv, '06+)(300hp)---TTC*

Nissan 350Z Track Model ('03-'04)---TTC*

Nissan 350Z Track Model ('05+)---TTC**

 

Ouch !!! The 35th anniv and '05 Track are nearly identical, the 35th being a bit heavier because of trim (leather, Nav) and has regular 18" mags.

 

The stiffer rear springs came to be mid year ’04. Some ’04 have it, others not. ‘05+ have it and within the same year, all trim level have the same suspension. The Track suspension is identical to any other trim level. So it shouldn’t get any points for that.

 

The rear tires are 245 wide for all except the BASE and Enthusiast who have 235.

 

What is the RTB ? Strut Brace ? If so, they all have one. Two actually, front and rear.

 

The '06 Grand Touring trim have the BRembo brakes too...

[Kolia]

I built a Base 350Z for the fun of it.

 

 

Your car: Nissan 350Z ('03-'05) (287 hp) Start Over

Your base class is TTC.

Your mods are as follows:

- Performance chip or single generic ECU non-reprogrammable reflash: naturally aspirated engine for 2 points.

-Added limited slip differential for 3 points.

-Non-OEM brake rotors (includes slotted, dimpled, cross-drilled, and cryo-treated rotors) for 1 point.

-Non-OEM brake calipers for 1 point.

-Add rear wing for 2 points.

 

Your 9 modification points puts you in TTC.

 

I’ve selected a chip upgrade for the 300hp engine. 2pts

I put 2 pts for a rear wing, incorporating the whole aero package of a Track/35th

I’m assuming the 3 pts for a rear LSD would cover for the VLSD + brake limited slip from the VDC. It’s the only bit of the VDC/TCS that is still ON when I turn it OFF (using the OEM switch). Lapping with the thing ON is suicide...

I couldn’t find points for the forged wheels vs aluminium?

 

 

We’re far from a full 15pts!

[Greg G.]

Ouch !!! The 35th anniv and '05 Track are nearly identical, the 35th being a bit heavier because of trim (leather, Nav) and has regular 18" mags.

 

The stiffer rear springs came to be mid year ’04. Some ’04 have it, others not. ‘05+ have it and within the same year, all trim level have the same suspension. The Track suspension is identical to any other trim level. So it shouldn’t get any points for that.

 

The rear tires are 245 wide for all except the BASE and Enthusiast who have 235.

 

What is the RTB ? Strut Brace ? If so, they all have one. Two actually, front and rear.

 

The '06 Grand Touring trim have the BRembo brakes too...

 

I'm not sure where the information that you are stating is documented, because everything I could find, from Nissan, magazine reviews, websites, indicates that the '05 Track model has increased spring and damper rates. They are specifically listed in multiple reputable car reviews in magazines as the reason for a daily street driver that wants a smoother ride to not purchase the Track Model.

 

Since the base model is what we use for Tire width, the extra 10 mm is worth "1/2 point". You have conveniently lumped a +2 front spoiler, +2, rear spoiler, and +2 underbody diffusers into only +2 points. You have also forgotten to add +1 for the brake pads that actually fit into the Brembo calipers. I'm not sure if the older base 350's had a rear strut tower bar as a standard feature, but I do know that it listed in later years as an "added feature". And at least one source listed that it was not present on the prior early base models (but I try to rely on multiple sources if it is not the actual manufacturer). Now, traction control on some cars is a plus, on others it isn't. I'm not familiar enough with the 350Z's traction control to know either way, but there is a reason that it is illegal in USTCC and other race series (because it is generally an advantage in late model cars). The same goes for the Vehicle Dynamic Control, which sure sounds like more than just anti-lock brakes, but even if it is just ABS, that is an advantage compared to the base model that doesn't have it.

 

I'm very comfortable with the way these are now classed. I've listed more than 15 points worth of upgrades. There are things that can be upgraded on these cars for free, because it is a specialty model (like the front and rear spoilers, etc), using the special circumstances rules. I would be happy to help you work through that if there are a substantial number of "specialty" parts that you have replaced that are forcing you into a higher class.

Thanks.

[GAC]

Greg,

 

All of my press information I have in my archive indicates that every 350Z had an integrated RSTB since the car went on sale. Further, I do believe this gentleman is correct that the Track model's dampers and springs are indeed the same as every other Z. If you'd like, I can get you an official confirmation from Nissan North America.

 

As far an information for public consumption, you may want to check here:

http://

http://www.config.nissanusa.com/redirect.jsp?tryset=true&make=Nissan&flow=trimselect&trimName=Track&lang=en&option=_TE_CTK&model=350Z&modelName=Z&year=2006&trimType=Z%20Coupe&destination=CFG

 

As far as those wily editors are concerned, they don't always get it right. I used to be one of them.

[Greg G.]

As far as those wily editors are concerned, they don't always get it right. I used to be one of them.

 

Now I see why so much bad information is spread across the Internet

[Kolia]

I’m just writing in the interest of equity here. I built the base Z in what I thought was the spirit of the rule.

 

My sources are Nissan USA documents, which I’ll gladly scan and send to you.

 

Here you will find the owner manuals in pdf format: http://www.courtesyparts.com/nissan-manual/

 

I always thought all the 350Z had always a rear strut bar. I don’t have all the technical documents from 2003.

 

Yes, I’ve lumped the “Aero” package into one +2 deal, following what you said about “sub upgrade mod value”. The front spoiler is a lip added to the existing lip. It’s 1/8in lower that the one it covers (with a ride height of 4in…). The rear spoiler is a wedge, not even a gurney flap. The diffuser is 2 plastic covers about 4x4 inches of projected shadow. All trim levels incorporate a full underbody airflow management (which is scrapped with any type of aftermarket exhaust by the way). If these are worth 6 pts, I should really consider getting a full race spec aero package for free! Spending 2 years working in a wind tunnel gives me plenty of neat ideas!

 

I didn’t think the OEM Brembo pads would also count as +1. This will make my full race pads another free upgrade…

 

I agree that discussing the specifics of the 350Z VDC system is beyond the scope of TT rules. In the case of the Z, it’s not helping going faster on the track. Most street car electronics are very average systems anyways. Again concerning the Z, the VDC incorporates a brake assist limited slip traction control, aiding the viscous limited slip differential, wich is not deactivated when the VDC OFF button is pressed. This is a definite advantage on the Base car, but still not as good as a real clutch or torsen diff. They all get ABS standard.

 

Off course you have the final word in this ruling and I’ll abide by whatever you decide. But in “real life” a base 350Z with 15pts of real mods will just murder a stock 350Z Track. Both on the track and on the dyno.

[Greg G.]

Regardless of how sub-optimal they appear, Nissan did do wind-tunnel testing on them, and they are functional mods. I'll agree that on your own, you could do much better with the 6 points, but this car does have a really good coef. of friction. In fact, I think they have done a pretty good job with the whole package. They are listed as upgrades (by Nissan), so they should be assessed points. Also, the VDC is an upgrade. Traction control may be an upgrade for some drivers? I think that there are 14 1/2 points not including possible rear STB, springs, dampers, VDC, Traction control. So, even if we "credit" the air dam, the question is how much is the VDC worth, and why is it common thought by car reviewers and testers that the Track suspension is stiffer than other models?

 

I don't know if the springs and dampers on the '05+ Track have higher spring rates, but I do know that it's been posted on at least 10 different Internet sites that I just found, but most of them seem to be from the same writer. I also found a reference in Edmond's from 2004 (before the alleged upgraded springs and dampers for the '05 Track), that despite the '04 Track and Touring models having the same suspension tuning, the track was a much stiffer and harsher ride, that they couldn't explain. They noted that even the girlfriend of one of the testers noted it as soon as she rode in the two different models.

 

If we didn't put the track model into its own class, then it would still end up in the same spot because after reverting to the base model, and adding up the points, that's where it would be. Of, if they didn't have to take the mod points, what do you think the non-Track owners will say. I'm sure they have a different take on this.

 

Like I said, if you need to, we can work on your individual classification if there is a possible use of the special circumstances rules.

[Kolia]

We are way beyond the OP question.

 

Greg, check your e-mails.