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The “Sorta” Non-Production Vehicles?


Racerwong
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@CeeDubb I was generalizing and even tried to concede some of that by admitting the M2CS-R may actually be at a disadvantage if unmodified in an open aero class. I also firmly believe (opinion so I can agree to disagree) that EPIC, or any other aftermarket electronics team will struggle to keep up with factory electronics engineers improving systems on the class racers like the M4, though to my knowledge that doesn't occur with the M2(35iR, or M240) at any level beyond initial development.

The header of this entire thread was "sorta" -non production vehicles so my musings seemed on topic since the header and initial post referenced several different non production cars. I may have erred addressing you specifically because you made great points and I found the discussion interesting. I was adding context to the overall discussion based on personal experiences which mean little to you since you don't know me from "shinola". I should have been more clear when referencing your discussion vs the initial more general thread.

And just to re-iterate it hadn't occurred to me to consider "starting" with an M2CS-R vs the street car to build in class, this is where I get into the meta of what differentiates these cars and how it could be duplicated. Additional spot welds, less coatings in general, and yes I understand these are insubstantial and probably agree few if any (at our level of motorsport) have lost races solely because of the "16" ounces of seams sealer, extra coat of paint, and undercoating that couldn't be removed without separating chassis structures or acid dipping so this only supports your arguments to a degree. 

@Tansar_MotorsportsI think it's fair to disagree, your point regarding "impossible to duplicate" makes sense. However I would also agree with your point it just takes money. Money simply makes the impossible improbable or even feasible. So my counter point was sort of trying to outline that classing can be boiled down to value, and some of these rules in my opinion help reflect that racing doesn't have to be expensive. It can be, and there is a place for that, but somewhere some (grey and constantly moving) lines should/could be drawn that can help mitigate spending. Other series do this with fuel flow restrictions, drivetrain replacement restrictions per season, etc. Ultimately I see NASA as inclusive in general because we try to find ways to include cars, even if it means adjusting performance mod factors as in the case shown here (-.4 to -.2 for the M2 discussed). And advocates like @CeeDubbcan effect change, it does take time in some cases, or more importantly empirical data, but history has also shown in cases of performance adjustment it's easier to give back, then to taketh away...

I don't influence these ST rules anymore then any other competitor for what it's worth (but I do appreciate the effort that goes into it). And wrestling with these changes season by season is part of the challenge for me. Win some and lose some, but I enjoy every moment of it (or at least I tell myself I do so I can sleep at night). And in the spirit of exploring this topic further regarding other platorms:

Along the lines of the initial thread header @Greg G. how about the Lotus Exige cup 255 (or 240) for that matter? I think they call these factory race cars, but I believe they are built by a 3rd party? I.E. caged, safety systems installed, and upgrades made by an entity outside of the Lotus group?

 

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Matt, it would really depend on whether they meet the eligibility requirements for a Production car.  Most factory built race cars don't meet those criteria.  And, it would depend on what was done to the car, and who did it, and if it was done under the factory banner.  That is why we are happy to look at these individually.  But, for the most part, I don't think that any GT4 cars are going to start life in the NASA ST rules with less than a -0.2 Mod Factor, until proven somehow that there are factually zero differences between the street car and the factory "built" race car. 

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On 1/20/2022 at 2:42 PM, Greg G. said:

We would be happy to entertain the request for the reinstatement of the -0.2 Mod Factor for your car.  🤔   😀

If I remember correctly, it uses stock ABS, stock transmission, upgraded suspension but not relocated suspension, and although the body is changed, mostly it was increased power and safety equipment that was added.  They are great cars, but I don't see that they are better than a mildly modified fresh Vette right off the showroom floor.

I run TTU anyways, so it wouldn't affect me anyways. But feel free ;)

With there only being 130 VCCs total, it's probably not that big of an issue either way.

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  • 3 weeks later...

BMW CCA has 8 factory M2’s signed up for their VIR race. I think as people start seeing more real world results in amateur racing they will realize they aren’t a “threat” the way the TCR’s are/were. I don’t think NASA will ever get guys with the M235’s etc to race here Bc even without a non-prod mod, those cars are no threat in sprint racing. So with it added in it’s just a pointless proposition for those guys. For now NASA can just simply mod those guys away to keep the core group or racers happy. But as a larger and larger segment of amateur racers turn to factory race cars, business decisions will likely drive that need to change. Even Toyota/Subaru just rolled out a “low cost factory car” that a non-prod mod would punish. We are starting to get close to the point where you can buy a factory prepped race car for cheaper than the cost of having a garage built it. 

 

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@Greg G. there’s actually a pretty big flaw with the non-prod mod that you intend for these cars. Both the M4 GT4 and M2CS-R are heavy cars. At 3600lbs they are able to exploit your weight mod with a .4 bonus. This effectively makes a factory GT4 level with every other chassis in class with the same transmission. The M2 is at a .2 advantage in class. As I have tried to suggest for a while, it’s past time to review that mod. Weight is no long a major impact on the performance of modern cars, especially those capable of running 335/345 tires. Just Bc a Porsche 992 GT3 is longer, wider, and heavier than a 997.2 GT3, that doesn’t mean it deserves a bonus. Despite being heavier and even leveled out on PTW, the modern chassis is still faster on track. Yet your weight mod effectively claims that’s not true. 
   Now if it makes sense to leave the weight mod for cars over 10 years of age, ok. But these cars that have been produced over the last 5-7 years frankly don’t need any help. 

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M2 CSR-R can only fit a 285 tire....not enough tire for the HEAVY car.  also the M2 CSR-r takes a -0.5 hit for DCT  and  -0.2 NP...car weighs 3,380 plus driver gives it a +0.3 weight bump...car still has a -0.4 hit....For ST3 entry I think with the DCT and NP hit the car has no chance against a C5 Z06 corvette with no hits at all and big fat torque curve....but we will see.

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1 hour ago, CeeDubb said:

M2 CSR-R can only fit a 285 tire....not enough tire for the HEAVY car.  also the M2 CSR-r takes a -0.5 hit for DCT  and  -0.2 NP...car weighs 3,380 plus driver gives it a +0.3 weight bump...car still has a -0.4 hit....For ST3 entry I think with the DCT and NP hit the car has no chance against a C5 Z06 corvette with no hits at all and big fat torque curve....but we will see.

I specifically said “with the same transmission.” We have guys in my region with e36 DCT swaps and Caymans with PDK. So the trans mod is a separate neutral item relative to those existing cars in ST. And yes, I am aware the M2/M4 can’t fit a 335. But I’m referring to other modern cars that can and are able to exploit the mod. Along with of course the ability for guys with M2/M4 to modify their cars to fit 335’s. (yes I know sounds crazy that guys would modify their factory race cars, but we have a racer in my region that has started doing that since the day he bought it.) So while on 285 maybe the weight mod still has some relevance. But with the ST rules allowing you to go up to 335 with no additional mod relative to 285’s, the rules can’t just assume it’s not an option some will take. 
 

Just to be clear, I have nothing against M2’s. Frankly I wouldn’t be concerned if they didn’t have a non-prod mod. The laptimes from the 5 M2’s at VIR a couple weeks ago were in line with my expectations (nothing spectacular.) But the issue is there are plenty of modern cars at this point that can easily exploit the weight mod to the detriment of the older cars in the field. 

 

 

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I concur on the weight mod bonus delete across the board and make it a level playing field for all.  The recent NASA race at Summit Point  in ST3 showed the two top cars battling (GEN6 Camaro and C5Z06)...the GEN6 Camaro had the bonus weight mod and the C5 had no bonus but was lighter...the Camaro would pull away on the straights and the vette would catch in the corners).  If there was no weight bonus the heavy Camaro would never have a chance.  Something to think about.

 You also support my original response to the thread that the NP -0.2 hit should be deleted for the M2 CS-R as they proved in the recent BMW CCA run at VIR a couple weeks ago they were in your words "nothing spectacular".  

Also I not not have the data but do we all believe the DCT trans is worthy of a -0.5 hit as compared to a manual 6 speed?  

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32 minutes ago, CeeDubb said:

I concur on the weight mod bonus delete across the board and make it a level playing field for all.  The recent NASA race at Summit Point  in ST3 showed the two top cars battling (GEN6 Camaro and C5Z06)...the GEN6 Camaro had the bonus weight mod and the C5 had no bonus but was lighter...the Camaro would pull away on the straights and the vette would catch in the corners).  If there was no weight bonus the heavy Camaro would never have a chance.  Something to think about.

 You also support my original response to the thread that the NP -0.2 hit should be deleted for the M2 CS-R as they proved in the recent BMW CCA run at VIR a couple weeks ago they were in your words "nothing spectacular".  

Also I not not have the data but do we all believe the DCT trans is worthy of a -0.5 hit as compared to a manual 6 speed?  

I actually think you have it wrong on the analysis. That Camaro is on 345 tires. It’s not falling off Bc of tire deg due to weight. If you actually look at his laptimes there isn’t a big falloff. The Vette driver is just frankly a much better driver. Yet the only reason he didn’t get completely destroyed is Bc the Camaro ran into lapped traffic and got unlucky. There is no reason a Camaro which has the most advanced traction control, e-diff, ton of tq, widest/longest chassis in the field needs extra power above 15+ year old cars. Goes back to one of my original points that the ST rules would even give a 992 GT3 a power advantage over a 997.2 GT3. Once balanced out PTW the 992 is faster without a bonus. It makes no sense to give the newer car with better developed suspension MORE power than the older one. 
 

Before the CCA event I said M2’s in regards to performance don’t really deserve the mod. So yes, post event based on what I saw my opinion remains the same. 
 

Determining the “fair” mod for a DCT isn’t easy. It’s definitely faster than a manual. Guys doing the swap expect 1s ish a lap. So is that .2/.3/.4, I don’t know. 

Edited by daytonars4
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I agree on driving...but do you think the Camaro would still have the advantage without the bonus weight bump?  I don't care one way or the other just curious.

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10 minutes ago, CeeDubb said:

I agree on driving...but do you think the Camaro would still have the advantage without the bonus weight bump?  I don't care one way or the other just curious.

Yes. The new Camaro’s are frankly just that much better. I’ve already seen a couple BMW racers ditch their cars for Camaro’s. And immediately it resulted in improved pace. So that’s exactly my issue with the mod. We are already conceding the modern cars are the best cars in the field. So why add further insult giving them more power. They are built around having all the extra weight just in being larger overall. They don’t need “help.” But of course none of this matters unless @Greg G. decides to take a look at it. 

Edited by daytonars4
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12 hours ago, daytonars4 said:

Yes. The new Camaro’s are frankly just that much better. I’ve already seen a couple BMW racers ditch their cars for Camaro’s. And immediately it resulted in improved pace. So that’s exactly my issue with the mod. We are already conceding the modern cars are the best cars in the field. So why add further insult giving them more power. They are built around having all the extra weight just in being larger overall. They don’t need “help.” But of course none of this matters unless @Greg G. decides to take a look at it. 

We looked at it during the last round of rules revisions, and the NASA Exec's decided not to make any of those changes or similarly, to add in another tire size Mod Factor category.  But, both are slated to be discussed again for the '23 rules revision process. 

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11 hours ago, Greg G. said:

We looked at it during the last round of rules revisions, and the NASA Exec's decided not to make any of those changes or similarly, to add in another tire size Mod Factor category.  But, both are slated to be discussed again for the '23 rules revision process. 

Thanks for your continued hard work Greg.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/20/2022 at 10:35 AM, CeeDubb said:

I concur on the weight mod bonus delete across the board and make it a level playing field for all.  The recent NASA race at Summit Point  in ST3 showed the two top cars battling (GEN6 Camaro and C5Z06)...the GEN6 Camaro had the bonus weight mod and the C5 had no bonus but was lighter...the Camaro would pull away on the straights and the vette would catch in the corners).  If there was no weight bonus the heavy Camaro would never have a chance.  Something to think about.

 You also support my original response to the thread that the NP -0.2 hit should be deleted for the M2 CS-R as they proved in the recent BMW CCA run at VIR a couple weeks ago they were in your words "nothing spectacular".  

Also I not not have the data but do we all believe the DCT trans is worthy of a -0.5 hit as compared to a manual 6 speed?  

I'm the driver of the C5Z06 in the video.  325whp/3250lbs.  I just want to add I was on 315 A7s, and the Camaro was on 315F/345R R7s.  You can see I am all over him in the corners in the first few laps, but then after that his pace improves in the corners.  This is because my A7s are up to temp by Turn 1 Lap 1, his R7s take a few laps to get up to temp.   So I would say that we had the same minimum corner speed potential.  

Personally I’m concerned about being able to keep up with these Camaros as I see no way to be in a position to pass these cars due to their straight line speeds.  I’ve instructed last month in one of these Camaro SS 1LE cars with a novice student on this same track and I was blown away with what the car allowed him to do in his 1st ever track event.  He was literally running about 6 seconds off our race pace (1:24 vs 1:18), as a novice, in a stock street car with 2 heavy people and no aero.  Only mods being a fast 200 TW tire and race pads.    I'm happy to race against Camaros, but I don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight.  

 

Edited by Scott B.
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17 hours ago, Scott B. said:

I'm the driver of the C5Z06 in the video.  325whp/3250lbs.  I just want to add I was on 315 A7s, and the Camaro was on 315F/345R R7s.  You can see I am all over him in the corners in the first few laps, but then after that his pace improves in the corners.  This is because my A7s are up to temp by Turn 1 Lap 1, his R7s take a few laps to get up to temp.   So I would say that we had the same minimum corner speed potential.  

Personally I’m concerned about being able to keep up with these Camaros as I see no way to be in a position to pass these cars due to their straight line speeds.  I’ve instructed last month in one of these Camaro SS 1LE cars with a novice student on this same track and I was blown away with what the car allowed him to do in his 1st ever track event.  He was literally running about 6 seconds off our race pace (1:24 vs 1:18), as a novice, in a stock street car with 2 heavy people and no aero.  Only mods being a fast 200 TW tire and race pads.    I'm happy to race against Camaros, but I don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight.  

 

That's incredible he was running that strong in his first outing.

We have a few newer Camaros that are definitely tearing it up in the Central Region as well.

What kind of mod do you think would be justified and fair in order to level the playing field some?

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On 4/22/2022 at 10:43 AM, Anderson Motorsports said:

That's incredible he was running that strong in his first outing.

We have a few newer Camaros that are definitely tearing it up in the Central Region as well.

What kind of mod do you think would be justified and fair in order to level the playing field some?

I think we would just be content with ST not giving them EXTRA power via the weight mod.lol From last year to this year it seems like we have double the number of Camaro’s in the paddock in our region. Newer cars will just be flat out better. There’s no getting around it. But let’s not compound the problem 😂.
 

Adding another step in the tire mod is probably the other item as well. For a 285 to have the same mod as a 345 doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. So just happy to see NASA plans to review these items again for 2023. If the decision is made to keep the rules as-is then I would just ask it be agreed to not change it for another 2-3 years. Bc it would be annoying if I (or other racers) ditch their cars for Camaro’s to then have the rules change the following year. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/22/2022 at 10:43 AM, Anderson Motorsports said:

That's incredible he was running that strong in his first outing.

We have a few newer Camaros that are definitely tearing it up in the Central Region as well.

What kind of mod do you think would be justified and fair in order to level the playing field some?

Good question.

I suppose there are three options:

1.  Points for tire size.   Anything over 315 is -0.3 points

2. Weight bonus change.  

+0.1 for 3301

+0.2 for 3450

+0.3 for 3601

3. Car specific penalties (or technology specific)

Example: SS 1LE -0.3

Option 3 is a tricky one, but in the end it’s really at the heart of the matter.   These new cars have much better ABS, traction control, stability control, and Electronic Diffs that not only take some classic driving skills out of the hands of the driver, but can consistently apply these “skills” at the level of an F1 driver.   

And now we are seeing factory racecars that come packed with driver aids to let even an intermediate driver be fast.   As time goes on, one would expect that the cars will get better and better at controlling the car and maximizing its own potential as the driver becomes more and more of a passenger.   So how do we allow the drivers of analog cars to compete?  Maybe we have to consider a Balance of Power (BoP) type strategy to supplement the current rules?  Sort of like Option 3.  

One of the things I like most about racing is having to manage the car at the limit without any driving aids.   You need a very well rounded skill set to do that.   And while fortunately/unfortunately modern cars are going to start making these driving skills unnecessary, and there’s nothing wrong with wanting to race a car with the latest technology, let’s make sure those who are driving analog cars are not left at a severe disadvantage when trying to compete against these newer cars.  Otherwise, if you want to be competitive you’ll have no choice but to run a new-tech racecar to stay in the game.

 

Note:  I just want to make clear that I am not of the belief that drivers of these “new tech” cars cannot be fast drivers themselves.

Edited by Scott B.
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I think its unrealistic that older cars continue to race in classes as time permits and don't expect to go against cars with better tech.  Do we need NASA vintage racing?  Probably worth a consideration with the age of some of the race cars.  

One should not expect to compete with a 15 year old car against todays technology.  

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Alright.. I'm the Camaro that was shown in the video here..

Let's get a few facts straight so people can relax with the lies pretending people know MY car better than me.

First off, the car has 335 rear tires and not 345, larger than most but 10mm is still 10mm. So tell the truth or don't say anything at all.

Last season I almost never out accelerated people in my class, I have all my races on YouTube to prove it. Take a look. Over this off-season I did absolutely no power changes  to the car, but I did swap flywheels to a flywheel that is 24.5lbs lighter than the stock one. 65.5lbs to 41lbs. Katech SKU: KAT-7004 so there ya go.

Tell me how a flywheel that is 38%(correct me if I'm wrong) lighter than stock is not going to drastically improve acceleration? At my current hp, which does not reach the fullest extent of the rules, I believe I have 6-7 average whp more than what would be an exact 10:1. Let's not kid ourselves and say that the 6-7 average hp make a huge difference. And to be VERY CLEAR, I support the weight mod being removed. I have spent the better part of 4 years trying to remove weight from this car and finally got down to a race weight of just about 3525. I've also spent the 4 years doing the best I can within my budget to meet the rules while building the car in the most efficient and beneficial way possible, spending tens of thousands of dollars. But I get it, I'm a shit driver.

If we are to look at a "problem" it would be torque. A Camaro or even a vette will possibly have hundreds of wtq more than some other cars like BMWs. But that is something those cars could move to GTS for. Also of note... A Camaro driver that is driving at the limit in racing or TT, to be the fastest they have TC and Stability Control off, it's not a race level TS/SC, it's still a street car. Just an FYI. The eLSD is great but is slower and more of a pain to deal with over a proper race diff. 

Another point is, at last years national championships, the best finish for a Camaro was 5th at a track where it seems they should dominate. So are they really that nuts? Be realistic here. Beat by an LS powered BMW, a BMW powered BMW, a C5 vette and an Evo. Seems that they fit pretty well in the fight. Remove the weight mod sure I agree, but anything more than that is going out of your way to handicap a car and/or future cars to feed your ego, rather than make a class equal. 

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On 5/4/2022 at 2:27 PM, Lewisracing said:

Last season I almost never out accelerated people in my class, I have all my races on YouTube to prove it. Take a look. Over this off-season I did absolutely no power changes  to the car, but I did swap flywheels to a flywheel that is 24.5lbs lighter than the stock one. 65.5lbs to 41lbs. Katech SKU: KAT-7004 so there ya go.

Tell me how a flywheel that is 38%(correct me if I'm wrong) lighter than stock is not going to drastically improve acceleration?

Did you dyno after changing the flywheel?  Granted, the dyno makes assumptions about driveline inertia and losses, which have changed in your case, but at the very least changing the flywheel (or wheels or tires, for that matter) will affect the power that a dyno reads.

Interestingly, in a 1:1 gear it will make less difference than in lower gears, so your acceleration out of the turns probably improved more than at the end of the straight (over and above the differences you'd expect from KE=.5*M*V^2 or aerodynamic drag).

 

Quote

If we are to look at a "problem" it would be torque.

I 100% disagree.  My car has a very wide, flat power band, and I do not accelerate better than other cars in my class when I am at low RPM (and thus high torque) vs when I am at high RPM (and thus low torque).  Torque by itself doesn't matter, it is only as a measure of the width of the power band that it has any meaning, and ST/TT has a better measure for the width of the power band than just using a simple number like torque.

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Posted (edited)

I know I personally don’t care about giving modern cars chassis specific mods. It becomes a never ending battle. But clearly, in a PTW class which uses a BOP system, we don’t want to give MORE power to them which is the issue with the weight mod. ST has always been a class that rewards tq so no one expects that to change. 
 

And please, let’s stop using Nats as a data point on Camaro’s. Anyone can look on your IG and see that you mentioned having e-diff issues all weekend which made it hard for you to do well for a full race. And the other Camaro was having the same issues. So ….

 

Ultimately it’s up to National to decide on the direction they want to go. If they choose to leave the weight and tire mods untouched, I would just hope it’s agreed to keep that stable for 2-3 years. So people switching cars don’t get screwed.  

Edited by daytonars4
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On 5/4/2022 at 4:27 PM, Lewisracing said:

Alright.. I'm the Camaro that was shown in the video here..

Let's get a few facts straight so people can relax with the lies pretending people know MY car better than me.

First off, the car has 335 rear tires and not 345, larger than most but 10mm is still 10mm. So tell the truth or don't say anything at all.

Last season I almost never out accelerated people in my class, I have all my races on YouTube to prove it. Take a look. Over this off-season I did absolutely no power changes  to the car, but I did swap flywheels to a flywheel that is 24.5lbs lighter than the stock one. 65.5lbs to 41lbs. Katech SKU: KAT-7004 so there ya go.

Tell me how a flywheel that is 38%(correct me if I'm wrong) lighter than stock is not going to drastically improve acceleration? At my current hp, which does not reach the fullest extent of the rules, I believe I have 6-7 average whp more than what would be an exact 10:1. Let's not kid ourselves and say that the 6-7 average hp make a huge difference. And to be VERY CLEAR, I support the weight mod being removed. I have spent the better part of 4 years trying to remove weight from this car and finally got down to a race weight of just about 3525. I've also spent the 4 years doing the best I can within my budget to meet the rules while building the car in the most efficient and beneficial way possible, spending tens of thousands of dollars. But I get it, I'm a shit driver.

If we are to look at a "problem" it would be torque. A Camaro or even a vette will possibly have hundreds of wtq more than some other cars like BMWs. But that is something those cars could move to GTS for. Also of note... A Camaro driver that is driving at the limit in racing or TT, to be the fastest they have TC and Stability Control off, it's not a race level TS/SC, it's still a street car. Just an FYI. The eLSD is great but is slower and more of a pain to deal with over a proper race diff. 

Another point is, at last years national championships, the best finish for a Camaro was 5th at a track where it seems they should dominate. So are they really that nuts? Be realistic here. Beat by an LS powered BMW, a BMW powered BMW, a C5 vette and an Evo. Seems that they fit pretty well in the fight. Remove the weight mod sure I agree, but anything more than that is going out of your way to handicap a car and/or future cars to feed your ego, rather than make a class equal. 

I can't tell if you were trying to be as aggressive as it came across...but anytime you use BOLD writing on the interwebz, you might as well be yelling.

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@CeeDubb we finally got to see an M2CS prepped for ST3 in Midatlantic this weekend. The driver also has an e36 S54 he’s been racing in GTS2 so he’s a known driver with good pace. You can’t really use the laptimes as a gauge just due to the amount of traffic and cautions we had. Also rain Sat. But it looks like with the current mods it is certainly capable of battling near the front of the field. Clayton has done a ton of work to his car. Carbon doors, hood, upgraded exhaust shaved about 200lbs. Also completely redid the Aero. He’s running 275’s. I believe his tune is custom which has an insane power curve with 335whp/419wtq. Fortunately for you all ST leadership doesn’t think tq matters so it’s a pretty easy advantage you can exploit. Acceleration out of low speed corners/starts is a pretty nice advantage to have on the lower tq cars and was pretty obvious to see. Eventually ST3 will probably be filled with either Camaro’s or M2’s 😂

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