Cobb Access ECU/AccessPort rule definition please.

[Valhakar]

I have a 2003 Subaru WRX 2.0L Turbo. I have a great deal of suspension and safety mods that bump me into Class C, not a big deal. However my unknown quantity is the Cobb AccessPort.

 

The problem is that it could be defined as option 11.1/11.2 or option 13 in the Engine modification section.

 

11) Reprogrammable ECU chip, reflashable computer, or aftermarket computer system that can directly control engine timing maps and/or fuel injector pulse, allowing fine-tuning: 1) at the track +6 nat. aspirated, +11 turbo/supercharged 2) elsewhere +5 N.A., +8 turbo/ S.C. (Do not also take points for performance chip/reflash)

 

 

13) Performance chip or single generic ECU non-reprogrammable reflash—turbo or supercharged engine +4

 

The AccessPort in it's base form can load premade generic reflashes to the ECU. The Reflashes are for certain premade mod paths (ie. Turbo back with stock turbo/fuel components but modifies the boost levels and IDC/Timing) +4

 

The Unit can be upgraded to the StreetTuner package. This allows people to tune at the track with a laptop and reflash the ECU on the spot. +11

 

The last possible use of this device is the ProTuner package. This allows a tuner to make custom maps for your car. This would be the +8 option.

 

How will it be possible to have a fair scaling of this device since all ECU reflashes for the Subaru are now at the very least Tunable on the Dyno with no way to check if it is a custom or generic map. The last thing I need is to be tossed into B class with heavily modded STI and Corvets with my paltry +40-45 WHP.

 

-Dave

[Greg G.]

I have a 2003 Subaru WRX 2.0L Turbo. I have a great deal of suspension and safety mods that bump me into Class C, not a big deal. However my unknown quantity is the Cobb AccessPort.

 

The problem is that it could be defined as option 11.1/11.2 or option 13 in the Engine modification section.

 

11) Reprogrammable ECU chip, reflashable computer, or aftermarket computer system that can directly control engine timing maps and/or fuel injector pulse, allowing fine-tuning: 1) at the track +6 nat. aspirated, +11 turbo/supercharged 2) elsewhere +5 N.A., +8 turbo/ S.C. (Do not also take points for performance chip/reflash)

 

 

13) Performance chip or single generic ECU non-reprogrammable reflash—turbo or supercharged engine +4

 

The AccessPort in it's base form can load premade generic reflashes to the ECU. The Reflashes are for certain premade mod paths (ie. Turbo back with stock turbo/fuel components but modifies the boost levels and IDC/Timing) +4

 

The Unit can be upgraded to the StreetTuner package. This allows people to tune at the track with a laptop and reflash the ECU on the spot. +11

 

The last possible use of this device is the ProTuner package. This allows a tuner to make custom maps for your car. This would be the +8 option.

 

How will it be possible to have a fair scaling of this device since all ECU reflashes for the Subaru are now at the very least Tunable on the Dyno with no way to check if it is a custom or generic map. The last thing I need is to be tossed into B class with heavily modded STI and Corvets with my paltry +40-45 WHP.

 

-Dave

 

Well Dave, you tell me. How am I supposed to be able to confirm whether a driver has the generic reflash, the ProTuner reflash, or the customized tune, or a hidden map on the customized tune. If you can give me a way of being able to absoluetly confirm that only the pre-made mod map is being used, I'm willing to listen. Because I'm not aware of any.

[BrandonT]

The SCCA is addressing this by basically allowing any boost modifications through programming at a certain level. So you're either stock or modified in the ECU area - pretty easy to ascertain with just a test drive. Custom vs. 'STD' maps I have no idea what you would do. I would encourage NASA to make that one points rule, with additional points for at the track tuning.

[Valhakar]

Well Dave, you tell me. How am I supposed to be able to confirm whether a driver has the generic reflash, the ProTuner reflash, or the customized tune, or a hidden map on the customized tune. If you can give me a way of being able to absoluetly confirm that only the pre-made mod map is being used, I'm willing to listen. Because I'm not aware of any.

 

Well honestly your answer cuts both ways. You tell me how you are going to judge if my ECU is even flashed? The whole point of a COBB ECU reflash is to be undistinguishable from stock. Cars even pass ECU checksum values and even the new VIN data algorythm is handled.

 

I am bringing this up because it could be a huge problem, I see enough posts about "WRX too fast" and the like. Some of us are honest. Many others are not. You can spot a ported head or turbo. You can even check compression track side. There is no way for you to check a good ECU remap.

[Greg G.]

Well Dave, you tell me. How am I supposed to be able to confirm whether a driver has the generic reflash, the ProTuner reflash, or the customized tune, or a hidden map on the customized tune. If you can give me a way of being able to absoluetly confirm that only the pre-made mod map is being used, I'm willing to listen. Because I'm not aware of any.

 

Well honestly your answer cuts both ways. You tell me how you are going to judge if my ECU is even flashed? The whole point of a COBB ECU reflash is to be undistinguishable from stock. Cars even pass ECU checksum values and even the new VIN data algorythm is handled.

 

I am bringing this up because it could be a huge problem, I see enough posts about "WRX too fast" and the like. Some of us are honest. Many others are not. You can spot a ported head or turbo. You can even check compression track side. There is no way for you to check a good ECU remap.

 

I agree, that's why the Cobb Access Port (which does allow for re-programming even if the choices are not customized tuned maps specific to the actual vehicle), StreetTuner, and ProTuner all seem to fall into the +11 category since they can all be reprogrammed at the track. I agree that having the capabilities of the StreetTuner and ProTuner are superior, but there is no good way to check for compliance as you stated. On the regional level, you could request a waiver from your Regional TT Director for the extra points if you could somehow assure your Director that you are only using a single generic reflash (Accutech datalog maps?, other?). However, as you have stated, it will be very difficult for us to determine at the National Championships which program you are using, which means we will have to assess for the maximum that the system allows. This is a very tough area to deal with once the honor system is breeched, or in question.

 

As far as just determining who has a reflash, chip, etc, there are a few ways to tell. First, we can look at other "hardware" mods and determine if they will not allow the car to run properly without an ECU modification/reflash. Second, we can dyno the car and look for increased power levels above and beyond what the car should have. Third, it will be obvious to competitors with specific knowledge about the car model when a car has had extra work done such as a reflash. Fourth, we can swap a stock ECU into the car, and if the car doesn't run right, or if the competitors times suddenly drop, the competitor has big problems. Fifth, we can place a GPS accelerometer into the car and measure estimated hp while on the track, and compare with the known values from a similar car with stock ECU.

 

Some of us are honest. Many others are not.

This better not be the case in NASA TT or their will be "many others" that are kicked out of NASA TT--so far, the count over more than two years in multiple regions is one (1). Anyone that mistakes this low number for a lack of concern on the part of NASA TT Administration is sadly mistaken. The low number is a byproduct of the quality participants that we have recruited to our ranks that have a desire to compete in a fair venue. Those that want to go all out have put themselves into TTU or TTR where they belong.

[Valhakar]

Well the Street Tuner requires a Laptop to tune the car. The laptop must be plugged into the ECU while it is running So it isn't exactly a stealth device. The maps it creates then have to be converted into a format for the AccessPort to use, then the map is flashed to the ECU. The Street Tuner software is mated to one ECU and one Accessport as well so the maps cannot be shared with other AP users.

 

So If you want to lump Access port into a single catagory, it would be the +8 option as it is impossible to tune a car with the AP, You can only use premade maps, either generic from COBB or made offsite at a Dyno.

 

It also means I will have to go get a 100 octane track map created since I will have to spend at least and additional 4 points.

[Greg G.]

Actually, the ability to have multiple different maps programmed into the Access Port is what provides the easy accessibility at the track (for example, maps for hot, cold, mild, humid, and dry days, or maps for increased torque vs. increased hp). Isn't that how it works--you can preprogram multiple options and then use whichever one you want at a given time? As well, we do have guys that bring laptops to the track and reprogram their ECU's (sometimes multiple times a day). And, as far as them not being too stealth, I can tell you that if you asked my drivers who is reprogramming at the track with a laptop, I'd bet that 90%+ wouldn't know who it is (and have never seen them do it).

[Valhakar]

Ok but no one said you have to bring the AccessPort. One could show up with an offsite tune loaded into the ECU already. Once flashed in, you are done. Leave the unit at home or in the hotel room.

 

Lumping in AP with true +11 stand alone ECUs like AEM will just drive people underground. The AP alone should be +8 since all the maps are made offsite and not in the actual current conditions. You cannot tune with an AP, only load premade maps made at another location.

[Greg G.]

Ok but no one said you have to bring the AccessPort. One could show up with an offsite tune loaded into the ECU already. Once flashed in, you are done. Leave the unit at home or in the hotel room.

 

Lumping in AP with true +11 stand alone ECUs like AEM will just drive people underground. The AP alone should be +8 since all the maps are made offsite and not in the actual current conditions. You cannot tune with an AP, only load premade maps made at another location.

 

True, that without the laptop you cannot tune for the actual conditions at the track, but how many different pre-made maps can the AP hold? And, once again, how is TT admin supposed to know whether or not you have the laptop or the AP with you at the track? I suppose we could come up with some way of sealing the OBDII port to prevent access--might be a good start, and could save those that are truely not programming at the track some points? Or, maybe we should just make all computerized ignition and fuel systems illegal

[GAC]

This sure is a tough one, Greg. You've got your standalone EM, your piggyback EM, your chips, your cookie cutter reflashes, your dyno or street tuned reflashes, and your at the track programmable stuff!

 

If they truly don't have the ability to shift maps at the track by not bringing the AP, or sealing the OBDII port as you suggest, then that should be considered. Remember an AP only marries to one car at a time, so it's not like they could use someone else's.

 

You know, I was talking to a tuner yesterday, and there really isn't such a thing as a truly "cookie cutter" map anymore. Most maps do take into account certain mods or fuel types. Those maps may not be dyno tuned for a particular car, but they are built with certain things in mind. That I think would still be generic in this day and age.

 

You also need to know that just about every WRX owner has the ability to flash his or her ECU using OpenECU, a free utility developed for use on WRX ECUs. All you need is the free downloadable software and a cable. Of course, you have to know what you're doing, but still, it's out there.

Edited March 21, 2006 by Guest

[Valhakar]

? Or, maybe we should just make all computerized ignition and fuel systems illegal

 

BAH, I might as well drive a Dodge.

 

So in theory a person can claim +8 and come with no hardware to guarantee they are not flashing on site. Either that or maybe bank the device with the track steward. Each AccessPort is mated to an ECU. You cannot use another AP once you have mated yours to your car.

 

As much as I hate to say it, the AP cannot fall into +4 unless the person is seriously trusted.

 

On a lighter note, I am fixating on rules this much now and I am prabaly one season away from a TT license.

[Greg G.]

? Or, maybe we should just make all computerized ignition and fuel systems illegal

 

BAH, I might as well drive a Dodge.

 

So in theory a person can claim +8 and come with no hardware to guarantee they are not flashing on site. Either that or maybe bank the device with the track steward. Each AccessPort is mated to an ECU. You cannot use another AP once you have mated yours to your car.

 

As much as I hate to say it, the AP cannot fall into +4 unless the person is seriously trusted.

 

On a lighter note, I am fixating on rules this much now and I am prabaly one season away from a TT license.

 

One season away , by then, all Sube ECU's stock or otherwise could be worth 30 points

[Valhakar]

Do you really want a "novice" in an Unlimited car with 500 CHP?

 

 

Then again that could work to my advantage. My past experience is Rally. With that much juice, the WRX would be a drift car.

 

I think if the person is forthcoming and makes their AP/ECU available from the start the +8/11 points would be easy to enforce.

[FocusTed]

You don't even have to have a laptop at the track to do special ECU mapping.

 

In the Focus we have these units

 

We can have a master program design 4 maps for us....and still make adjustments at the track with this small unit. might be pretty hard to catch.

 

In the SF series, we had a company make "Spec" files for our cars, still using this unit....but they limit the adjustments that can be made. We also get the serial number of the unit from the company that sold the unit too, so we can catch people who are using other units.

 

But, that is something at can't be none here in TT or PT.

[Valhakar]

With the AccessPort, even street tuner, you have to connect test cables in the dash. Then you have to flash the car and restart. Then disconnect the test cables. It is a pretty clunky process, not one you could do whith the car in operation on the way to the impound.