ruthless013 Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 is it my understanding that hpde cars with roll bars (i have an autopower race 4 pt) are now required to also have approved fixed-back seats and harnesses? i recently installed a bolt in, with plans to get a seat and harness, at least for the driver, in the not-so-near future. this would seriously affect my '04 budget. this was a loose interpretation of mine from a thread on another forum, please feel free to set me straight. thanks in advance for your help. -chuck (sorry if this should have been posted in hpde) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless013 Posted January 16, 2004 Author Share Posted January 16, 2004 this question is causing quite a debate in other forums, as it affects a large group of people. an answer, or clarification would truly be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLee Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 The rule: ALL CARS with roll bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.5.4 and also conform to section #15.5.22 pertaining to seat back braces. It is NOT a new rule. The intention is to prevent reclining and/or non-fia fixed-back seats from folding backwards UNDER a rollbar/cage/harness bar and breaking the occupant's neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianZ Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 The rule: ALL CARS with roll bars are required to have adequate roll barpadding per CCR section #15.5.4 and also conform to section #15.5.22 pertaining to seat back braces. It is NOT a new rule. The intention is to prevent reclining and/or non-fia fixed-back seats from folding backwards UNDER a rollbar/cage/harness bar and breaking the occupant's neck. so can i install a seat brace on my fatory seat to comply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLee Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Yes - you should install SOMETHING to keep the factory seat from folding back under the rollbar. Bear in mind that commercially available back braces (ioport's for instance) are designed to be bolted to an aluminum seat. You CAN use a device like that but I would recommend fabricating something to get the brace against the back of the seat over a LARGE area ... maybe even a "cradle" to hold out against the sides of the factory seat - where the supports inside the seat usually are. The seat back braces is NOT REQUIRED to ATTACH to the seat - simply limit it's rearward motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianZ Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 right now, with the design of my roll car IF my seat were to collapse the seat back would hit the roll bar first... I guess I'll run over to IOport on monday.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless013 Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 (edited) this is the bar i have in my civic. does the horizontal bar on the driver's side constitute a brace? it certainly does not allow the seat to recline. also, where specifically on the roll bar must padding reside? 'adequate' isn't specifically defined in the rules. clearance with headliner and interior is super tight in some spots. Edited January 18, 2004 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civicrr Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 In one of the other forums, I posted some info regarding this subject. I have recieved a email from Jerry which helped to clarify the issue to me. As already stated, the brace is there to prevent the seatback from submarining under or moving under the harness bar portion of the rollbar. It does not have to be physically attached. It must just prevent rearward movement. I also would recommend a pretty wide plate against the 'factory' seatback. Most factory seats have their supporting framework near the outside of the seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1GreyTeg Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 this is the bar i have in my civic. does the horizontal bar on the driver's side constitute a brace? it certainly does not allow the seat to recline. also, where specifically on the roll bar must padding reside? 'adequate' isn't specifically defined in the rules. clearance with headliner and interior is super tight in some spots. I have this same bar in my Integra. The diagonal bar does impair movement for the passneger side but I could see it not being even all the way across and not adequate. The horizontal bar (strap by the drivers head in the pic and NOT a harnessbar) is supposed be there to keep the drivers seat from folding back BUT from what I understand, you wouldn't want ANY slack between the seat and a back brace. I had my harness bar welded from IO port and when the passenger seat is moved to the furthest position back, Not reclined but moved all the way back on the sliders against the harness bar the seat Cannot be reclined. I came upon this same issue when I attended the Type-R expo at beaverun last season that was run by several NASA Virginia folk who after reviewing my setup ok'd it as long as the passenger kept the seat fully upright and as far back as possible in constant contact with the bar with the 5 point harness on. My drivers side has a shell and 5 point harness so there is no issue there, just the new mandate with keeping your harnesses fresh as the local dairy department in your local supermarket. As per padding, we pretty much padded all of the rollbars tubing that would come close to the drivers or passengers head or shoulders. Which makes sense to me. Now, one question though: If you have been signed off to run solo for a particular course previous to attending an event, the passenger seat shouldn't even be an issue? Anton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 So all HPDE cars need the seat brace, or only if they have a roll bar? It seems to me the rules section was for Race cars only. Can someone clarify? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mansier Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 The seat must be braced so that it does not submarine past the roll bar in the event of an impact. This is an issue that should really be considered by all those without a rollbar (if your seatback fails in a car that does not have a rollbar and/or seat back brace in an impact, the driver may be in some serious trouble). Some items to consider: Please do not attempt to mount an IOPort Seat Back Brace style unit to a car that is not fixed back and/or competition approved. It will act like a spear, and should only used in the manner intended by IOPort (in Competition, with Competition Seats). In our region, OH/IN, this will be tech inspected, as in all regions. All of this is for your protection, and just ups the ability for us to send you home in the same condition you arrived in. More fun, more safety! LM BTW: The Type R Expo looks like it was an awesome event! However, any tech produced at that event should not be taken as a NASA ruling, as it was not under the NASA CCR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianZ Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Please do not attempt to mount an IOPort Seat Back Brace style unit to a car that is not fixed back and/or competition approved. It will act like a spear, and should only used in the manner intended by IOPort (in Competition, with Competition Seats). After the Email I got form Jerrry i was under the impression I had to install one in my car. I have the cartory seat. I have installed the IOport racing. I pulled the fabric off the seat and clamped, bolted, and welded the seat bacl brace the frame of the seat. How would this act as a spear? I can take pictures to show you what I am talking about if you would like. but I feel I have installed the seat back brace in the safest why possible with a factory seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mansier Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 The seat would need to have some real structure there to mount the IO port brace to. Some seats only have springs and fabric in which case there wouldn't be anything to mount the brace to, and your back would be the first thing to contact it. If I were using a stock seat I would try to mount something horizontaly between the seat and the IO Port brace. Something to stop the seat from end to end. If you have some pictures I could take a look, and give a better idea. See you at the track! LM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thk Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 All of this is for your protection, and just ups the ability for us to send you home in the same condition you arrived in. More fun, more safety! Much appreciated. But per the rules, I would be allowed to run a 5 point aftermarket race harness without a rollbar on any (fixed or reclining) seat, right? Wouldn't that be far more dangerous than having a reclining seat w/a rollbar pulled all the way back as Anton mentioned? Then there is the whole fitment issue for instructors since the seats I'd run wouldn't be very comfortable for a good number of people (Recaro SPGs) if I do get around to installing a rollbar and two fixed back seats w/5 point harnesses. And doesn't this rule technically ban most Miatas/convertables (not that I own one) since I've seen plenty of them on track previously with rollbars, per the rule on convertables, but without fixed back/FIA seating. *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mansier Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I have emailed Jerry to get the official word. LM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianZ Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I have emailed Jerry to get the official word. LM this is the reply I got from Jerry : Look in section 11 where is states that all non-OEM additions must comply with section 15.5 for safety. The bottom line is that you likely got lucky. If you add a roll cage then the cage need to comply with the safety rules listed in the racing section. That means padding, etc. Additionally, you have to have a seat back brace or an FIA seat. The safety rules are in place for a good reason. There has been at least one driver killed (at Lime Rock) because of a lack of a seat back brace. Don't be next. Jerry Kunzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thk Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I'm not trying to be difficult here but I guess an official thread is necessary to clarify certain items so that there is no confusion among us students and officials of NASA. Within 15.5 (harness), as long as all the correct hardware is used and the angle of the shoulder harness doesn't exceed 40 degrees, it's considered safe. No mention of it requiring a rollbar/rollcage with some form of harness bar requirement to mount your shoulder belts. Obviously, common sense would dictate the need for some kind of rollover protection regardless of the rules. But if one wanted to be "strapped" in for HPDEs and they followed the rules accordingly, a 5/6 point harness would be legal without a rollbar/cage despite it not being "OEM" equipment. And the rule on open cars aka convertibles seem like it's a double whammy for them since 1) they must have a rollbar - though, again, common sense and 2) must have some kind of brace which doesn't exist yet for factory/OEM reclining seats or purchase FIA standard seats with a harness. Which is odd since in case of a horrific rollover that would cause even the rollbar to cave in, I would prefer if my seats gave way and pushed back instead of using my head as the next support piece that the roof/ground would be in contact with. But, knock on wood, I've never been in such a crash yet and I hope I never experience something of that nature. I'm sure the rules are there with safety in mind but as a non-engineer who can't fathom what forces are involved in a crash, I have to question certain things till it's made clear to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Pollo Diablo Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 And doesn't this rule technically ban most Miatas/convertables (not that I own one) since I've seen plenty of them on track previously with rollbars, per the rule on convertables, but without fixed back/FIA seating. *shrug* No, it does not...the rule is to prevent the seat to submarine under the rollbar/cage and snaping the neck of the occupant...in a miata, for instance, there is nowhere for the seat to submarine...it will hit the bulkhead. hope that helps, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 If an impact is hard enough to cause the seat to "submarine" under the rollbar, it is hard enough to push any back brace (touching or bolted or not) through a soft springs-and-foam OE seat and into the driver. Also, not having the seatbrace bolted means that the seat can still shear, and the brace can actually be a point of impact with the driver. there is absolutely nothing good I see coming out of this rule. Bolted to the back of an aluminum seat, a seat brace at least makes a little sense. But an unattached brace, behind a soft OE seat........ no way my 2c, do as you wish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thk Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 And doesn't this rule technically ban most Miatas/convertables (not that I own one) since I've seen plenty of them on track previously with rollbars, per the rule on convertables, but without fixed back/FIA seating. *shrug* No, it does not...the rule is to prevent the seat to submarine under the rollbar/cage and snaping the neck of the occupant...in a miata, for instance, there is nowhere for the seat to submarine...it will hit the bulkhead. hope that helps, Matt Thanks for the clarification Matt. I forgot how far I needed to crank the seat forward on a Miata for me to fit properly. I guess I guesstimated that I could recline the seat back pretty far but I forgot that it would hit the bulkhead. Then again, shouldn't the harness bars that are welded in a rollbar (lets say Autopower) also have the same effect if a reclinable seat was pulled back towards that bar and used as a brace? I mean, if the bar is technically strong enough to hold up the car itself in a rollover, it should be strong enough to hold a xxxlb person + seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1GreyTeg Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 If an impact is hard enough to cause the seat to "submarine" under the rollbar, it is hard enough to push any back brace (touching or bolted or not) through a soft springs-and-foam OE seat and into the driver. Also, not having the seatbrace bolted means that the seat can still shear, and the brace can actually be a point of impact with the driver. there is absolutely nothing good I see coming out of this rule. Bolted to the back of an aluminum seat, a seat brace at least makes a little sense. But an unattached brace, behind a soft OE seat........ no way my 2c, do as you wish Well this goes back to what some of us have been talking about on another board and in a private group. Noone has suggested Just using the seat back brace on an OEM seat for this exact reason but, to either use an available brace like the ones from IO port or Autopower and adding a plate that extends to the edges of the seat horizontally and at least 12" vertically, or building your own altogether. [EDIT] I come to find out after talking to Ken from IO port that the braces he sells will Not work correctly on a stock seat or if not bolted to said seat.[EDIT] Thanks Kyle for waking me up again, I had almost forgotten about this post. A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasajerry Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hopefully this will clarify things with respect to the seat back brace issue. If you install a roll bar / cage in your street car, then you have to do it right! This means proper size tubing, padding, etc. This also includes the use of seatback brace to prevent the seat from going over backwards and you striking your head on something. There are a few cases where this doesn't apply like, such as a Miata. If your seat can't go over backwards then don't worry about it. Furthermore, the seat brace only has to stop your seat from going over BACKWARDS. Whether you attach it to the seat or not is your option. A brace that holds the stock seat or aftermarket seat is fine. This is a very simple concept and it’s an easy rule to follow which can save you from injury or worse. Almost anything that holds your seat up and distributes the load will be fine. I once saw a basketball secured behind the seat used! It worked, but I don’t recommend this! This is an official post. If anyone has any questions about this please contact me directly for answers. I emailed I/O Port to get clarification regarding the seat back brace kit they sell. When I hear back I will post the answer. Sincerely, Jerry Kunzman [email protected] Executive Director National Auto Sport Association Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasajerry Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Here is the information as promised from I/O Port" "I do not recommend using the I/O Port or Autopower seat back brace without securing it to the back of the seat. Without securing it, in an accident there is potential for the plate at the back of the seat to rotate and cause a knife edge to penetrate the seat. Also, and just as important, the brace will not work as it is secured to the roll bar by clamps and this brace would just rotate around the shoulder harness bar in an accident. In other words, our brace, as well as the Autopower brace, MUST be secured to the seat in order for them to work as designed. Ken Myers Visit our Web site at http://www.IOPortRacing.com" In this event, Ken recommends a more creative solution where you may have to have something made up. Most welding shops can make a simply brake that firmly attaches to the main hoop. I found that a lot of exhaust shops welcome a case of cold beer at the end of the day in exchange for helping you form a bracket! Have fun, Jerry Kunzman [email protected] Executive Director National Auto Sport Association Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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