944-Spec#94 Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 (edited) Here is list of potential things to check at impound in 5 min setting. I figure maybe Dan or another NASA official can select 2-4 things to check for each race and suprise us as to what they will be. I think it will keep us on out toes and show series professionalism. I think we can come up with some qucik ways to validate some things. Heck all the cars are 944s so it can't be that hard. Sure some things are "technical" and not very performance related, but rules is rules. Item : Device/Tool(s) required 1) Weight : Scales 2) Tire Size/Type : Visual 3) Track Width : Simple pipe jig or tape measure to wheels 4) Throttle Cam : visual 5) Balance Shafts: 10mm Socket (pull belt cover) 6) Rear Coilovers: Visual 7) Fuel Injectors : Visual for part number 8.) Proper balast location: Visual 9) Stock Motronic Box: Visual outside 10) Suspension Bushings: Visual with car drive up on ramps 11) Brakes: Visual (possible wheel removal) 12) Wheel Type: Visual 13) Roll cage Mounting points: Visual 14) Engine mounts: Visual (possible use of ramps from below or mirror 15) Stock intake from AFM: Visual 16) Stock Fuel Pressure Regualator: Visual P/N 17) Legal Camberplates: Visual There has got to be more... Edited August 5, 2004 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 No plexy, very obvious? Question, as driver and passenger windows are not required, could a street driver like myself replace those with plexy to save weight? Original metal panels and bumpers, the knock test. Stock front Valance, visual. Gearbox, P/N check. Shift mechanism, partly visual? Sunroof panel? Are they a couple? Dylan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 I love it! I'm with all three of you on this. Kevin, Joe, Eric, you're absolutely right. SoCal Group is working on a track width jig as we speak. Scales have almost always been available at the SoCal races. As Series Director out here, I have allowed a 1 year grace period to build the group because some of our cars came from other sanctioning bodies (POC, PCA) and as such were "over spec", like Jeff Grow's beautiful POC Sapphire blue car with spherical metal bearings instead of bushings in the suspension. My 924S was raced with TCRA and had a non stock throttle cam and front wheel spacers. Another car had Fuchs alloys at it's first race. I let them all run. They saw how fun it was. They're hooked. I've now put my car in spec, and I'm sure Jeff and the others will, too. It's now the 2004 season. I've made it clear that the grace period is over for the SoCal Group. See my other posting. Some drivers feel that if a car is out of spec, but not winning, why bother with a protest? I disagree, and there WILL come a time when out of spec cars will not be allowed to start or run in class. If you're out here and see a car out of spec, bring it to my attention and I'll be the bad guy, ok? For that matter, do the same if I'm in PHX. I'll talk to the powers that be if you don't want to. I don't want somebody adversely affecting the finishing order in the front ,middle, or back of the pack. This is a spec series. Plain and simple. I believe everyone knew that Tyler was runing on the Hankooks. Testing? I didn't ask, but he was not counted in the finishing positions, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Joe, also: flywheel thickness Remove rubber boot and measure throttle housing bore. Intake manifold internal coatings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p928sfan Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Not sure if this is possible, but checking cams. I have heard "suggestions" of other cams (2.7) in cars. Dyno's would be interesting, if for nothing else, just a comparison. I understand they could be easily detuned, but it would provide the "fair" people at least a comparison number for all. Joe's site has the beginning of something like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Don't know a good way to verify cams. The lobes on any cam p/n can be ground to any specs, though I've heard that if you have a much bigger cam profile, it won't slide into the cam housing because the cam lobes would be bigger than the bearing seats. Could we pull the cam cover and measure cam lift on the valve stem? You know................all of a sudden I'm disgusted that we even have to deal with @#$%&* cheaters. Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Could we pull the cam cover and measure cam lift on the valve stem? Nope. Pulling the cam housing is a real pain and NOT a 5 min job. It requires loosening the timming belt and a new cam housing seal. It not impossible to do, but I really don't like tearing apart an engine for random checks. Of course the cam is still in the housing. It then needs to come out probably to check specs. Plus I have heard that cams are difficult to measure anyway. Remember think simple 5 min quickie checks. These checks could not expected to catch everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-spec#09 Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Some more: Stroke: pull plug and measure piston travel Legal pistons (eg not european): visual through spark plug hole Compression ratio - hard to measure -maybe could be done by comparing cylinder volume tdc and at bottom of stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p928sfan Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 OK, then my idea of cams isn't feasible at the track. You know, some groups have the option built into the rules to allow the purchase of any competitor's motor for $xxxx (300, or 500, etc..), specifically to discourage cheating. Don't all start throwing things at me.....I'm just being a bit facetious. (sp?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-spec#09 Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Kevin There were discussions concerning more thorough checks of engines than can be done at the track. At the time, NASA (Dan) did not feel that an engine buy option was necessary but I think they have considered impounding cars and taking to a dyno. There is, I believe, an option that, for a fee, i.e. the cost of the work, you can protest someones car and have it taken apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 How about the adopt a drive solution? We suspect a car of cheating, put a couple different people in the seat (on or off the track) and see if you can "feel" a difference for starters? I know cars are different but, wouldn't a significant increase in hp be noticeable? A lighter clutch setup would be? Try before you buy on a strip down? Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgrow Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Why don't we just follow the procedures as determined by the sanctioning body? Or does each racing class come up with its own granular inspection program? What do other spec classes do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Other classes horse whip cheaters and make them wear ladies lingerie. This method of dissuasion would work well for all SoCal drivers except for Dylan and Eric, who both like to watch each other being whipped WHILE dressed in ladies lingerie.................. Honestly guys. Just bring completely legal spec cars to the track in 2004 or I'm going to get unpopular real quick-like as I weed out the guys who can't conform to the rules. Some drivers will hate me in the short term, but it's deathly important to the continued growth of the series that we ALL toe the line. Everybody. I promise that if we do, we'll all have fantastic, affordable racing. I'm absolutely committed to making this class grow. It's the only Porsche racing that I can afford! So...........Don't make me come back there!.............I'll turn this series around and we'll go back home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Tim you promised you wouldn't tell about the lingerie!!! I'm so embarrassed now. Next time we share a room people will talk. Anyone got a stock throttle cam? The hunt is on. That's the only thing I have left to do besides learn how to get the car around the track quicker. 2 weekends of track time 2 weeks away!! Can't wait to get back in the saddle!! Eric I've got that Lingerie wearing Aussie in my sights and setting up for the pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benbow Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Stock throttle cams are proving hard to come by. None of the parts shops will sell them without selling the whole throttle body..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Guys there are provisions in the 944-spec and NASA CCR for any car you think may be cheating. Read them and they are there. My suggestion here is a way to help out the officials and provide a list of simple quick check items. I feel that rotine check of 2 to 5 things on that list are good way to show that the org is on top of the rules. It is currently 100% legal and with in the org's rights to have inspections on the car for any legal issue. I am attempting to give the org a list of things that can be easily checked if they so choose. The idea is this. After qualfying cars got to impound for weight check. While there they can in 15 seconds check for spec tires/wheels. At the end of the race they again check weight tire & wheels and Today are checking for track width and # points on the cage. Next event they check weight & Tires and look for throttle cams and rear coil overs. Next time they check weight/tires and 1 or 2 other things from the list. This list would be there to be a quick reference as to some things they could check rather than needing to come up with that list every time. Remember that having a "fast" car is not illegal in anyway. In fact having 10 more hp is NOT illegal. It is all about HOW you got there. So me driving another car won't prove squat. Maybe I know for sure that Car number XX has more hp or handle's better. So what. Is is legal or not? Right now we have been very Lax in enforcing rules. It is time get more serious and enforce what can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-spec#09 Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Check with 20th St Auto Salvage in Phoenix 602-253-2020. They are a good source of used parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I can fix the throttle cam problem, too. Who needs one? Eric S. Chris B. Dylan S. Stand by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I got one from my shop. I'll be 100% with 5 min of work and it'll be done by my next NASA event. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Attaboy! Making my job easier.............thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted August 5, 2004 Author Share Posted August 5, 2004 Hey guys... I am reviving the tread from the dead. Reason is NOT to start trouble, but I still think the idea of inspection a few things at impound during an event is a good idea. It may help to calm some concerns related to who is doing what and also bring more strict feel to the seires. I really think that if All the racers know that cars are being looked at on frequent basis that it will tend to catch little things. Sure it can't catch everything, but most of the niggling stuff we compain about can be addressed or clearly raised to the directors for awareness and final ruling. Plus with a new Az director it might be possible to get some these ideas going. PS... if you think this concept is bogus don't post or respond and this thread will sink back into the grave and it won't hurt my feelings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 I agree Joe. I think it has been missing from our series. I see the Miata guys getting put on the scales etc. So should we. and not just the front finishers, randomly some of the back markers. Nobody wants to go down a place say from 4th to 5th if the 4th guy place is light. So, by all means, random inspections and scales for either more than top 3 or at least randomly after top 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 The idea has merit in my opinion. I need to see rules compliance. We don't have much problem with it at this point, but we'll need to watch the new guys coming in. They may fall out of spec because of ignorance, or they may fall prey to their shop wanting to create a winning car for them. Every single driver in our class carries the same weight when it comes to rules compliance. I hope you more experienced guys can help ensure that everybody stays within spec because we all have an interest in that. The reason we don't get weighed more often is that I don't believe anyone is light. If Ryan asks me if I want to weigh the front finishers, I can tell him that I believe all my guys are good to go. Sometimes they weigh us anyway and that's ok. I've only ever askedfor 2 cars to go to scales. One was really fast out of the box, with a new driver. The other ran out of gas in the hot pit lane, while exiting the track. Otherwise, we've all been weighed at one time and I trust you guys. The other factor is that we run with the Miazdas and they get weighed everytime! They clog up the scales for how long? There's lots of them! You might not know it, but I look over the cars all the time. Sometimes I even drive back to the track at night, bust out my flashlight and go through the cars thoroughly! Hell, at Buttonwillow last time I arranged for that MAZDA shop that has the dyno to meet me at 10:00 PM and we dyno'd 3 of your cars without you even knowing it! The other 4 I personally took out on the side road to get a seat of the pants feel for the horsepower and to check the gearing by the tach drops between upshifts. Only one of the cars pulled unusually hard in 4th gear.........about as hard as I'm pulling your leg right now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted August 6, 2004 Author Share Posted August 6, 2004 Tim, While I understand that you make know every car is ok on weight and the wreck me otters clog the scales I think that is important to do so checks each event. Even if it is the same guys. Reason is that it will set a tone of no tolerance to rules infractions. Even if you clandestine inspections were true it would better to have everyone see an inspection is happening. Personally I think weight checks and other should be some what random. IE. before event decide to pick cars #2, 5, and 7. Any car that finished 2, 5 or 7 gets inspected for Weight, visual for underhood and tire check, etc Everyone else is free to go. At the inspection tell guy this is what we are looking for. Even if you know a car is 150lbs heavy put them on the scales to prove it. Even if you know #7 has toyo's of the right size and right wheels make the point of inspecting them. It takes 15 min and shows that the class is serious about rules. Even the obvious ones. I like the idea of random checks based on finish order. Certain folks should not be singled out and those in front or back should not aways be checked. All drivers should feel that at any race event they could be inspected for anything. Only the director should know what finish order and what items would get checked. Doing it infront of everyone sets a tone that I think will be good for the series. I would leave it to the discression of the director as to what penatlies would be imposed based on what actions. IE, log book notes, slap on the wrist, Result disqualfication, event disqualification, temp weight penalty, or rule book clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Yessir, agreed. I wasn't serious about the dyno testing , but I do check the cars all the time. No problems here with our guys worried about lack of rules enforcement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.