kbrew8991 Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 glad to have a final answer, even tho I don't agree with it (I'm just following the manual, man!!) good to know, I'm now at the limit of TTF . Removes the temptation to modify the car further. I am currently planning on making it, but I've got to make sure work, etc is ok with it before I fully commit... so far so good tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 Greg, If that small eccentric bolt at its greatest allowable camber setting still falls within the spec stated in his FSM, I'm totally ok with him not taking points if you are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted July 12, 2006 National Staff Share Posted July 12, 2006 Last time I checked, you weren't the only TTF competitor. A camber bolt is a camber bolt. Ken can put as much are as little camber as he wants on both the front and rear once he takes the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Greg, If that small eccentric bolt at its greatest allowable camber setting still falls within the spec stated in his FSM, I'm totally ok with him not taking points if you are... afaik there is no "factory" specified range, which is why SCCA autocrossing will let you put these Toyota brand bolts in a Stock division car it kind of goes along the lines of "am I supposed to take points for the factory 3-angle valvejob, etc.." or at least thats the light I'm looking at it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 Last time I checked, you weren't the only TTF competitor. A camber bolt is a camber bolt. Ken can put as much are as little camber as he wants on both the front and rear once he takes the points. Absolutely right, and I wasn't speaking for any of the other competitors; just my own opinion, so of course they may feel differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Okay, Let me get this straight. If you have Camber Plates Front and Rear it’s + 2 Points If you have Camber/Caster Plates..but the Caster is within OEM Specs it’s + 2 Points If you have Camber/Caster Plates..but the Caster is not within OEM Specs it’s + 4 Points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
860TTC Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Let me get this straight. If you have Camber Plates Front and Rear it’s + 2 Points If you have Camber/Caster Plates..but the Caster is within OEM Specs it’s + 2 Points If you have Camber/Caster Plates..but the Caster is not within OEM Specs it’s + 4 Points If Camber/Caster Plates...but both Camber and Caster are not within OEM Specs strut top is spaced up to make up bump travel on a lowered car + 12 Points & zero points for Camber/Caster plates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted July 12, 2006 National Staff Share Posted July 12, 2006 We haven't published the +2 rule for caster with c-c plates yet, but basically, what Ted and 860TTC wrote look about right. We are going to discuss strut tower height changes and spacers before we publish the final rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted July 12, 2006 Members Share Posted July 12, 2006 We haven't published the +2 rule for caster with c-c plates yet, but basically, what Ted and 860TTC wrote look about right. We are going to discuss strut tower height changes and spacers before we publish the final rule. +12 for spacers? Hey, heres an idea. Lets leave the ruls alone MID SEASON and finish the year before we keep jacking with them. I cant keep up with all the changes and I hardly think its fair to constantly change the rules as we go along. What ever happened to: If the rules dont say you can, then you CANT. Why not just enforce that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I'm sorry, but why would a competitor be charged 12 points for raising the CC plates or for raising the struts via spacers? You can't generate more static camber or change the goemetry without lowering the car significantly... so what's the deal? A-arms Rock!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 I'm sorry, but why would a competitor be charged 12 points for raising the CC plates or for raising the struts via spacers? You can't generate more static camber or change the goemetry without lowering the car significantly... so what's the deal? A-arms Rock!!! AND the thicker the camber plate that the strut has to pass through, the more droop travel is sucked up. That's a BAD thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted July 12, 2006 National Staff Share Posted July 12, 2006 We haven't published the +2 rule for caster with c-c plates yet, but basically, what Ted and 860TTC wrote look about right. We are going to discuss strut tower height changes and spacers before we publish the final rule. +12 for spacers? Hey, heres an idea. Lets leave the ruls alone MID SEASON and finish the year before we keep jacking with them. I cant keep up with all the changes and I hardly think its fair to constantly change the rules as we go along. What ever happened to: If the rules dont say you can, then you CANT. Why not just enforce that? That would mean no spacers-- And, it would mean no caster out of spec without a +12 assessment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think there’s a difference between Rule Changes and Clarification. I think this would be more of a clarification, right Greg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted July 12, 2006 National Staff Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think there’s a difference between Rule Changes and Clarification. I think this would be more of a clarification, right Greg? Yes, I would agree. The only change would be adding a points assessment for caster out of spec with camber-caster plates, instead of just making it either illegal or +12 depending on how the rules are interpretted. But, since this thread has brought up more questions than answers, we are trying to work through the scenarios to have more answers than questions down the road (to Ohio). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuperdave Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Okay, Let me get this straight. If you have Camber Plates Front and Rear it’s + 2 Points I think it's a total of 4: + 2 for the front plus + 2 for the rear. I'm asking because I was just told to add 2 for the camber bolts I just installed on the rear. The + 2 for those was in addition to the points I had already assessed myself for the camber plates on the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted July 13, 2006 National Staff Share Posted July 13, 2006 Nope, +2 for camber (front, rear, or both--still +2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuperdave Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Nope, +2 for camber (front, rear, or both--still +2). Then I will send you a revised revised classification form that takes out those points. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted July 13, 2006 National Staff Share Posted July 13, 2006 Nope, +2 for camber (front, rear, or both--still +2). Then I will send you a revised revised classification form that takes out those points. Thanks! Just bring it to the Championships. John may want one, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
860TTC Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 What ever happened to: If the rules dont say you can, then you CANT. Why not just enforce that? Because, then we would be the SCCA, not NASA. Would should encourage aftermarket vendors to create parts for our cars to make them better. And they should pay us contingency! One thing that we should remain aware of is a good or performance alignment is the first thing anyone should do for on-track or autocross. Factory specs are generally for tire ware, easy driving, and tracking straight on the street – not on a racetrack. We shouldn't discourage anyone from following the proper patch of open tracking there car because of excessive points. The same could be said about stock/factory spec brake pads. Anyone at the TT level should have a performance alignment and performance brake pads on there car - Period. Unless it's a track car from the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted July 22, 2006 National Staff Share Posted July 22, 2006 http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7534 Just added (subject to be re-evaluated after the season): In Section 6.3.1, under Suspension/Brakes/Chassis Item 10)--The wording will be changed to the following for the remainder of 2006: Add, replace, or modify camber plates or bolts, shims, steering knuckles, or struts for simple camber and/or caster adjustment only (ex. slotting of single knuckle or strut bolt hole) +2 So, simple caster adjustment will be included in the +2 cost for simple camber adjustment, and will be charged +2 if the car is not already assessed +2 for camber adjustment. This rule will likely be changed to reflect the value of caster adjustment in addition to camber adjustment for the 2007 season. However, for the Championships and the remainder of the '06 season, we will avoid the extra assessment. Those that were not taking an assessment for caster adjustment earlier in the year were technically not in compliance since caster adjustment was not listed as a "free" modification. However, anyone that would be affected by this is now given an Official waiver for those prior events, and will not be penalized. GG 7-21-06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted July 22, 2006 Members Share Posted July 22, 2006 you know how to take the fun out of everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted July 22, 2006 National Staff Share Posted July 22, 2006 Sorry, I'm sure you will find something else to play with @ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveh Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 I have a question somewhat related to this discussion. I am wondering why rule 11, 'Replace or modify control arms for simple camber adjustment only ' is assessed +4 points while the rule being discussed here is only assessed +2. Rule 10 and 11 are accomplishing the same thing (simple camber adjustment only) yet control arms get two more points added. Cars with wishbone suspension do not have the option of using camber plates. Adjustable control arms are the only way to change camber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Rule 10 and 11 are accomplishing the same thing (simple camber adjustment only) yet control arms get two more points added. Cars with wishbone suspension do not have the option of using camber plates. Adjustable control arms are the only way to change camber. Thats Gregs way of punnishing everyone unevenly, for which he takes great pleasure in doing. So, yeah Greg, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
860TTC Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Thats Gregs way of punishing everyone unevenly, for which he takes great pleasure in doing. I disagree – everyone has something that gets hit hard for a common “change”. The punishment harsh, but even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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