Looking towards 2024..

[Anderson Motorsports]

I just saw the email/article about TT going with a TTT competition mixed in. It brought up a lot of questions and concerns for me. I posted on the article, but I'm not sure who will read it there and if they will reply so I figured this would be a good spot to throw it as well...may put it up on the Discord channel as well.

My response:

"This is effectively endurance TT, which is silly. If people want to run endurance, there’s the TREC series or various race groups. I’d venture to guess TTU-TT3 in nearly all regions, and TT4 in some regions, will not have the top cars winning both.

Aside from adding new competitive classes, etc… I’d like to see rule changes that work in the favor of true Time Trials/Time Attack/etc.

1.) Hot pitting, TP adjustment. This is critical for the TTU-TT3 guys. In March and October, it’s not safe to start TPs at 18psi with a semi-cold tire.
2.) Mandatory split sessions by lap time and not necessarily by class. It’s frustrating to catch lap traffic on lap 2 or 3. Each region is different, and there are faster cars in TT2 than TT1, etc… there should be two TT sessions and have the lap times split in half. This year, I was on 2.5 mile tracks with cars running 45 seconds per lap slower than me. That’s not conducive for me to have optimal lap options, nor for them.
3.) Stricter out lap procedures that are actively enforced that truly push for spread out driving where everyone on track gets some clean laps.

Not everyone runs TTU in TT, I get that. But even for most TT1 guys, to have two consecutive clean laps on <3mile tracks is rare in the current format.

Maybe #2, split sessions, is more of a regional decision…but nonetheless in the spirit of time trial racing, it needs to be addressed."

 

 

A fellow NASA MidAmerica guys' response..

"More avenues to compete is always great but how does lap traffic factor in to TTT? On a general time trial session the TTU/1 and even 2 cars catch the 5/6 cars after only a few laps. The slower traffic cars maintain their racing line forcing the faster cars to pass off line, which obviously affects their lap time. On average I’d say the TTU/1 cars only get 2-3 clean laps before being significantly impeded.

The other thing to consider is how TTU/1 cars generally approach a session. The goal is the fastest single lap, which typically is lap 1-3. Those laps are where peak tire and braking performance are achieved. Between the tires falling off pace and traffic as mentioned above there is generally no reason to stay on track for more laps. The generally slower 5/6 cars don’t necessarily have that detriment and can run longer without having the significant lap time delta.

I think the TT rules could be improved a bit versus adding a new format which I think only plays to the slower classes. For instance, allowing cars to hot pit for quick changes such as tire pressure adjustments and even shock changes would be a start. NASA is the only TT/TA org that applies a DQ for exiting and re-entering the track. If TT is after the fastest lap time then having the proper tire pressure plays a huge part in that.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the above.

The more I thought about my initial response I also realized that throughout a day consistency is the last thing on my mind. As mentioned, TT is about the fastest lap of the day, I’m constantly tweaking pressures, shocks adjustments, sway bars, etc. with the goal to go faster with each session, not stay the same. On new tracks sometimes those setup changes mean going slower but that’s part of the process. I see trying to excel in TT as losing ground in TTT and visa versa."

 

 

 

Article for reference if needed.

https://nasaspeed.news/columns/nasa-news/nasa-announces-new-competition-format-time-trial-target/#comment-1911

[Anderson Motorsports]

Had some really good conversation on the Discord channel for pros and cons on TTT... 

@Greg I would appreciate some insight on changes that are either in discussion currently or past discussion that are more time trial/time attack centered. Like the suggestions I made above, the DQ rule for laps before the infraction, and after, etc.

NASA is a great organization and is regionalized, making it more convenient to make the most events on the calendar. I'd like to see them conform to some of the other organizations rule sets, especially in TT, where 1 lap per day is all you're really looking for.

[Christian944]

I'm not sure splitting TT sessions is the answer, what happens if there is a rainy day and one TT group gets a drier track vs a wet track from the earlier TT group? Also the first session (coldest session) is generally always the fastest one, especially on tracks where it heats up during the day(in summer).  From my experience TT has worked well, I can usually get 2 fast laps in before hitting traffic (as a TT3 car). And if you play your cards right you can take a cool down lap and give yourself room for another flier. 

I'm not sure I care much for the new TTT award, seems counterproductive to the spirit of TT but I'm ok with it, it's just not something I'll be paying much attention to.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Christian944

[rsotak]

On 12/6/2023 at 9:17 AM, Anderson Motorsports said:

I just saw the email/article about TT going with a TTT competition mixed in. It brought up a lot of questions and concerns for me. I posted on the article, but I'm not sure who will read it there and if they will reply so I figured this would be a good spot to throw it as well...may put it up on the Discord channel as well.

My response:

"This is effectively endurance TT, which is silly. If people want to run endurance, there’s the TREC series or various race groups. I’d venture to guess TTU-TT3 in nearly all regions, and TT4 in some regions, will not have the top cars winning both.

Aside from adding new competitive classes, etc… I’d like to see rule changes that work in the favor of true Time Trials/Time Attack/etc.

1.) Hot pitting, TP adjustment. This is critical for the TTU-TT3 guys. In March and October, it’s not safe to start TPs at 18psi with a semi-cold tire.
2.) Mandatory split sessions by lap time and not necessarily by class. It’s frustrating to catch lap traffic on lap 2 or 3. Each region is different, and there are faster cars in TT2 than TT1, etc… there should be two TT sessions and have the lap times split in half. This year, I was on 2.5 mile tracks with cars running 45 seconds per lap slower than me. That’s not conducive for me to have optimal lap options, nor for them.
3.) Stricter out lap procedures that are actively enforced that truly push for spread out driving where everyone on track gets some clean laps.

Not everyone runs TTU in TT, I get that. But even for most TT1 guys, to have two consecutive clean laps on <3mile tracks is rare in the current format.

Maybe #2, split sessions, is more of a regional decision…but nonetheless in the spirit of time trial racing, it needs to be addressed."

 

 

A fellow NASA MidAmerica guys' response..

"More avenues to compete is always great but how does lap traffic factor in to TTT? On a general time trial session the TTU/1 and even 2 cars catch the 5/6 cars after only a few laps. The slower traffic cars maintain their racing line forcing the faster cars to pass off line, which obviously affects their lap time. On average I’d say the TTU/1 cars only get 2-3 clean laps before being significantly impeded.

The other thing to consider is how TTU/1 cars generally approach a session. The goal is the fastest single lap, which typically is lap 1-3. Those laps are where peak tire and braking performance are achieved. Between the tires falling off pace and traffic as mentioned above there is generally no reason to stay on track for more laps. The generally slower 5/6 cars don’t necessarily have that detriment and can run longer without having the significant lap time delta.

I think the TT rules could be improved a bit versus adding a new format which I think only plays to the slower classes. For instance, allowing cars to hot pit for quick changes such as tire pressure adjustments and even shock changes would be a start. NASA is the only TT/TA org that applies a DQ for exiting and re-entering the track. If TT is after the fastest lap time then having the proper tire pressure plays a huge part in that.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the above.

The more I thought about my initial response I also realized that throughout a day consistency is the last thing on my mind. As mentioned, TT is about the fastest lap of the day, I’m constantly tweaking pressures, shocks adjustments, sway bars, etc. with the goal to go faster with each session, not stay the same. On new tracks sometimes those setup changes mean going slower but that’s part of the process. I see trying to excel in TT as losing ground in TTT and visa versa."

 

 

 

Article for reference if needed.

https://nasaspeed.news/columns/nasa-news/nasa-announces-new-competition-format-time-trial-target/#comment-1911

The only thing with splitting the session by time alone is the way cars make speed.  In the RM region we often have TT4 cars in front of TT1-3 cars.  When we split by time The straightaway speed difference was huge but then we would catch them immediately in the corners and our whole lap was ruined.  We shifted to split session by class and it hasn't been an issue since

[Anderson Motorsports]

5 minutes ago, rsotak said:

The only thing with splitting the session by time alone is the way cars make speed.  In the RM region we often have TT4 cars in front of TT1-3 cars.  When we split by time The straightaway speed difference was huge but then we would catch them immediately in the corners and our whole lap was ruined.  We shifted to split session by class and it hasn't been an issue since

It shouldn't matter where or how they make power. If they run a fast enough lap time to get in the 'fast' heat...then grid them by lap time and it shouldn't be a problem. It would be no different than we do now, 

 

On 12/7/2023 at 3:46 PM, Christian944 said:

I'm not sure splitting TT sessions is the answer, what happens if there is a rainy day and one TT group gets a drier track vs a wet track from the earlier TT group? Also the first session (coldest session) is generally always the fastest one, especially on tracks where it heats up during the day(in summer).  From my experience TT has worked well, I can usually get 2 fast laps in before hitting traffic (as a TT3 car). And if you play your cards right you can take a cool down lap and give yourself room for another flier. 

I'm not sure I care much for the new TTT award, seems counterproductive to the spirit of TT but I'm ok with it, it's just not something I'll be paying much attention to.

 

They would be back to back... is is there a chance the weather can change? Sure... likely, nah.

[Tansar_Motorsports]

Obviously, fewer cars on track, and a smaller lap time delta between those cars, will result in more clean laps for everyone.

I think splitting up classes is problematic.  You don't want people gaming their warmup session Saturday morning in order to get themselves into the "slow" group, just to get slightly more ideal time slots, or any similar shenanigans.

Forcing slow cars out of TTU and into their appropriate classes, and then splitting the 2 sessions by class would fix most of the problems.

 

But, there are only soo many minutes in the day.  For every session they add, other sessions have to get shorter.

So unless NASA consolidated down some of the other sessions, I don't see there being time in the day for doubling the number of TT sessions.

[Anderson Motorsports]

2 minutes ago, Tansar_Motorsports said:

Obviously, fewer cars on track, and a smaller lap time delta between those cars, will result in more clean laps for everyone.

I think splitting up classes is problematic.  You don't want people gaming their warmup session Saturday morning in order to get themselves into the "slow" group, just to get slightly more ideal time slots, or any similar shenanigans.

Forcing slow cars out of TTU and into their appropriate classes, and then splitting the 2 sessions by class would fix most of the problems.

 

But, there are only soo many minutes in the day.  For every session they add, other sessions have to get shorter.

So unless NASA consolidated down some of the other sessions, I don't see there being time in the day for doubling the number of TT sessions.

Why would someone want to be in a slower session? That would give them less ideal time slots, rather than more.

Slower cars being in TTU doesn't really matter. Currently, after the first warm up/qualifying session, everyone gets gridded by time anyways. 

There could very well be TTU guys in the slow session, or TT5 guys in the fast session. It removes the classing from any type of differentiation other than the awards and standings....but the sessions would purely be based on time.

Rather than 5 sessions a day, you could easily schedule for 4 split sessions for two different run groups and it wouldn't take much finagling at all.