Advice to Reduce Oversteer

[2wheelsmoker]

I have a Integra FWD car and I need some advice on how to reduce oversteer. I have a few hours of track time under my belt and I constantly notice how easy it is to break the rear end out during increased entry speeds. The front is completely planted and does not budge at all with higher speeds.

 

I have factory sway bars, HR Champion Coliovers, Toyo TR1's, about 1.5 degree camber front and rear, and a few degrees of toe in the front. I was wondering if this attribute can be addressed with more fine tuning or does it require additions. I'm looking for more insight on how to how to work with what I have now. I don't want to add a bigger wing, change wheels, or change tire compound at this moment.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[ninetyfourintegra]

Are you certain that you have no toe 'out' in the rear? My Integra has 1/16 out on both rear sides for AutoX but it is an absolute bear to handle at speed on the track. I am having it set to zero before my next HPDE.

[granracing]

You shouldn't need any other goodies on your car to get it handling the way you would like it to.

 

What is your front toe set to? You said a few degrees - is that really accurate? I'm not being a jerk by asking this, but do you know how to measure toe yourself?

 

You mention coil overs - any idea what spring rates you are running? Did you properly corner weight the car?

 

The funny thing is a few events from now, you'll probably want it loose in the back like it is currently. After getting more experience, you want oversteer in a FWD car. When the back starts getting a bit loose, floor the gas. It is also quite possible that some of the rear becoming loose is due to how you are approaching the corner.

[924sowner]

yeah, my focus SVT will start to come around if i come into a corner a little too hot with too much steering input... what are the spring rates front to rear? maybe a little too much rear spring? or too much camber at a corner... i have no idea what would be a good camber setup guideline for a FWD....

[ddg]

I have a Integra FWD car and I need some advice on how to reduce oversteer.

 

I have a FWD car that is pretty nose heavy.

 

I can't believe your car is that loose unless you have really stiff springs and shocks in the rear.

As a rule of thumb for FWD cars (this includes roll stiffness and spring /shock rate): soft rear, stiff front: understeer

stiff rear, soft front: oversteer

 

Stock FWD cars understeer like pigs, that way people won't get into trouble driving on the street, think about slamming on the brakes while swerving to avoid something/someone, the rear is completley unloaded and trying to brake at the same time, instant slide (engineers have to take this into account when tuning the handling)!

Rwd drive cars can be more neutral because the the more even weight balance.

I think you're doing allot of "trail braking", I was able to get the rear out on my car when it normaly would just understeer.

 

I now have roll stiffness and spring rates almost identical front and rear, the car can be REAL loose if I chop the throttle on corner entry and I can forget about trail braking!

The good thing is I've dicovered "throttle steering"! I can set the car up on a long sweeper to be neutral or pushing a little under power, as I approach the apex, I chop the throttle making the rear step out, the car is now pointing straight at the apex, without adding more steering input, I drive in a straight line across the apex out to corner exit!

When done right it's a beautiful thing!!

I never thought my car could turn that sharply!

 

If I were you, I'd lose the rear bar untill you have more experience on track. An oversteering FWD car can be SPOOKY in inexperienced hands (I've been there!)!!

The recovery is VERY counterintuitve, to stop the rear from sliding, you have to get on the gas HARD, if you're too far gone, you'll leave the track in control but with an interior full of dust and a red face!!

[granracing]

Don't lose the rear bar!!! Your car will drive horribly then have another bigger problem to fix.

 

The camber settings you use won't impact this issue. For a car that is also used on the street, 1.5 camber in the front is fine.

[GAC]

.

 

I can't believe your car is that loose unless you have really stiff springs and shocks in the rear.

 

The recovery is VERY counterintuitve, to stop the rear from sliding, you have to get on the gas HARD

 

I agree with the above. When a FWD car is threatening to come around just about the ONLY way to get it to stop is to stand the gas, and often with lots of counter-steering as well.

 

I doubt your car is too loose; perhaps it's too loose for your liking, or you're just making some beginner mistakes that is causing the rear to come around and you're not expecting it.

 

In any case, here are some general guidelines to reducing oversteer, as found on TireRack.com. The direct link is:

 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=58

 

 

Adjustments Decrease Understeer Decrease Oversteer

Front Tire Pressure Higher Lower

Rear Tire Pressure Lower Higher

Front Tire Section Larger Smaller

Rear Tire Section Smaller Larger

Front Wheel Camber More Negative More Positive

Rear Wheel Camber More Positive More Negative

Front Wheel Toe Toward Toe-Out Toward Toe-In

Rear Wheel Toe Toward Toe-In Toward Toe-Out

Front Wheel Caster More Positive More Negative

Front Springs Soften Stiffen

Rear Springs Stiffen Soften

Front Anti-sway Bar Soften (Thinner) Stiffen (Thicken)

Rear Anti-sway Bar Stiffen (Thicker) Soften (Thinner)

Weight Distribution More Rearward More Forward

[Eric J.]

With coilovers it's important to know your spring rates and shock settings. It could be that you have too much spring in the rear or the shocks are set improperly.

 

But, yeah, a lot of folks with FWD yearn for some looseness, but if it's too much for you then you should get the problem addressed. A little less bar in the rear may help, too, but I'd suggest perhaps leaving things as they are until you get some more experience. It may be that it's a good setup and you're just learning it, but that's impossible to assess from this side of the keyboard. If it's not safe get it changed.

[2wheelsmoker]

Maybe it does have something to do with the way I drive. But first off, I must admit that I don't know much about suspension but there is a local mechanic here that works with two HC cars in the bay area that has been helping me set the toe and camber and he's been giving me very good advice on what type of baseline I should start with. Unfortunately I don't know what are the spring rates or if the car has been corner weighted. I'm actually not even quite sure what purpose corner weighting serves but I assume it's been done because the car was prepped for street/track before I purchased it. The suspension is very stiff though, this assessment coming from someone that used to drive around in a Caterham SLR with Bilsteins and 13"s.

 

On the track, I usually brake very late but have just enough time for the weight to transfer off the front before I snap the wheel into the turns. My turn in is usually a little late because I try to swing the rear out a little and pull it back into line to straighten at the apex. Truthfully, I don't really know what I'm doing but it seems like I'm getting more comfortable at speed but I would like someone to tell me if I'm doing something blatantly wrong and I need to change habits. Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a Class 2-3 standpoint.

 

I just feel dumbfounded because I can't get the front end loose at all and the rear is slide happy. I'm imagining that if I could get the rear to grip as well as the front I'd be better off, but I might just be dreaming.

[ninetyfourintegra]

.

 

Adjustments Decrease Understeer Decrease Oversteer

Front Tire Pressure Higher Lower

Rear Tire Pressure Lower Higher

Front Tire Section Larger Smaller

Rear Tire Section Smaller Larger

Front Wheel Camber More Negative More Positive

Rear Wheel Camber More Positive More Negative

Front Wheel Toe Toward Toe-Out Toward Toe-In

Rear Wheel Toe Toward Toe-In Toward Toe-Out

Front Wheel Caster More Positive More Negative

Front Springs Soften Stiffen

Rear Springs Stiffen Soften

Front Anti-sway Bar Soften (Thinner) Stiffen (Thicken)

Rear Anti-sway Bar Stiffen (Thicker) Soften (Thinner)

Weight Distribution More Rearward More Forward

 

I struggle understanding this:

Adjustments Decrease Understeer Decrease Oversteer

Front Wheel Toe Toward Toe-Out Toward Toe-In

Rear Wheel Toe Toward Toe-In Toward Toe-Out

 

is it saying that to increase oversteering, toe-in the rear wheels

[BrianZ]

On the track, I usually brake very late but have just enough time for the weight to transfer off the front before I snap the wheel into the turns. My turn in is usually a little late because I try to swing the rear out a little and pull it back into line to straighten at the apex. Truthfully, I don't really know what I'm doing but it seems like I'm getting more comfortable at speed but I would like someone to tell me if I'm doing something blatantly wrong and I need to change habits. Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a Class 2-3 standpoint.

 

Try braking earlier and smothing out you turn in.. if you "snap" the wheel you will unsettle the car. All your inputs should be smooth! Do you have any incar from your track days? this can be a very helpful tool to see what you are doing (I know it helped me a LOT)

[granracing]

Here's a brief explaination of cornerweighting:

 

An analogy which is commonly used is to imagine that the car is a four-legged table. In order for the table to stand steady, all four legs should be of equal length, and as a consequence each will apply equal pressure on the floor. If one leg is longer or shorter than the others, the table will rock and thus be unstable. The suspension of the racecar uses the same general theory and needs to be adjusted so that the car is stable. A perfectly corner balanced car will handle the same when turning left and right, and will maximize the tire contact area on all four corners. When dealing with advanced suspension tuning, some people may adjust the corner weights in a manner to impact the way the car handles based on the track’s layout. This approach is commonly used in oval track racing.

 

Don't let the discussion we're having her fluster you. Next time you go to the track, find an instructor who drives a FWD car to ride with you. As Brian said, being smooth is key. The comment previously mentioned about it being too loose for you (at least right now) also make a lot of sense. The benefit of having a FWD car fairly loose in the corners is the same thing that also "corrects" or straightens out the car - applying power.

 

Think of it this way, if the car understeers, you need to reduce acceleration (slowing the car down, losing speed, and increasing lap times). For a FWD car where the car is loose, you actually accelerate through the turn and gain speed.

[924sowner]

Maybe it does have something to do with the way I drive. But first off, I must admit that I don't know much about suspension but there is a local mechanic here that works with two HC cars in the bay area that has been helping me set the toe and camber and he's been giving me very good advice on what type of baseline I should start with. Unfortunately I don't know what are the spring rates or if the car has been corner weighted. I'm actually not even quite sure what purpose corner weighting serves but I assume it's been done because the car was prepped for street/track before I purchased it. The suspension is very stiff though, this assessment coming from someone that used to drive around in a Caterham SLR with Bilsteins and 13"s.

 

On the track, I usually brake very late but have just enough time for the weight to transfer off the front before I snap the wheel into the turns. My turn in is usually a little late because I try to swing the rear out a little and pull it back into line to straighten at the apex. Truthfully, I don't really know what I'm doing but it seems like I'm getting more comfortable at speed but I would like someone to tell me if I'm doing something blatantly wrong and I need to change habits. Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a Class 2-3 standpoint.

 

I just feel dumbfounded because I can't get the front end loose at all and the rear is slide happy. I'm imagining that if I could get the rear to grip as well as the front I'd be better off, but I might just be dreaming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if the guy works with HC cars then the car is probably set up for oversteer. those cars range from loose to wicked loose. i saw one spin coming out of a rather simple corner.... what you described as how you corner is rather advanced... like the others said, first off just be smooth. dont go for fast, just comfortable. Im only in HPDE 2, working on 3, and my car may be stripped down, have some racy alignment settings, and adjustable shocks, and may be able to hold its own against some pretty serious cars. but i dont drive it to its potential just yet. theres alot i have to work on before i go flat out. sounds like your coming into a corner too hot. im not carrying enough speed we all have stuff to work on with our driving so take it easy before you go for low times.

[2wheelsmoker]

Try braking earlier and smothing out you turn in.. if you "snap" the wheel you will unsettle the car. All your inputs should be smooth! Do you have any incar from your track days? this can be a very helpful tool to see what you are doing (I know it helped me a LOT)

 

You are echoing a thought I've always had in the back of my mind - I try to be smooth and understand the dynamics of a car that has time to adapt to the different inputs presented to it and find that it's very predictable. On the other hand, I also find it extremely easy to push it pass the "smooth" speed and wrestle through corners with varying degrees of speed. I probably start off with the former and end up doing the latter as congestion on the track frees up.

 

I have not had any incars yet but I definitely would actively seek any type of instruction I can get! How do I request that or do I sign up for HPDE 1 again?

 

In summary from the previous posts, I will probably have my car corner weighted, reduce speed to increase control, play with tire pressures, and try to get an incar. I don't want to have to adjust the stiffness of the car quite yet so I'll be leaving the bars alone for now. All the advice posted has been extremely valuable and I thank everyone for their contribution. Please keep them coming if you have anymore to share with me or anyone else in this thread.

[BrianZ]

I have not had any incars yet but I definitely would actively seek any type of instruction I can get! How do I request that or do I sign up for HPDE 1 again?

 

If you’re in HPDE 2 you can request an instructor. By the time you’re in group 3 you should know enough that a basic HPDE instructor might not help... You could ask some of your local HC guys to go for a ride along, or just hang out with them and ask for tips and advice.

[granracing]

My advice: be on the lookout for other quick drivers who you trust to take a ride with you. (This goes along with what Brian said.) Like many things in life, you may do various things by habbit and not even recognize you're doing it. Someone else in the car may quickly recognize it.

 

The biggest flaw I see people who are learning the "finer points" of racing (people in higher level groups including advanced group AND instructors) is they are too proud, maybe overconfident, to seek more help. Take a look at the top pro drivers. Think they don't continually receive coaching? If Schumacher can benefit from it, somehow I think I can too. Instructors are at events for you to tap into. Take the advice they give you and determine if it makes sense to you. The great thing with these events is you can try stuff, see how it works (or doesn't), then try other stuff. My point here is no, don't go back to HPDE1 but do continue seeking additional coaching.

 

One of the best things I did was obtain instruction from a racer who is very experienced, familiar with the track I wanted instruction at, and was also a good teacher. If you can afford it, see if there are any pro drivers who are from your area. For example (and depending on whom you're looking for coaching from) Eric Curran (GrandAm Cup and Speed World Challenge) and Randy Pobst (several series including Speed World Challenge) offer instruction. You'd gain much more by spending some money this way than getting go-fast parts in the future.

 

I find having incar video very helpful esp. if you get a decent system and mount it in a good location. Try to mount it in a location where you'll benefity (see more of the track and where you drove).

[BrianZ]

I find having incar video very helpful esp. if you get a decent system and mount it in a good location. Try to mount it in a location where you'll benefity (see more of the track and where you drove).

 

Dont forget to get your stearing wheel/hands in the shot. I think by far the video camera was the most helpful tool I had when learning! I would come home from the weekend and put it on my computer.. then watch it over and over (I still do this with my races). You will see things you did not relize you were doing, or things that you were not doing.

[jimgood]

On the track, I usually brake very late but have just enough time for the weight to transfer off the front before I snap the wheel into the turns. My turn in is usually a little late because I try to swing the rear out a little and pull it back into line to straighten at the apex. Truthfully, I don't really know what I'm doing but it seems like I'm getting more comfortable at speed but I would like someone to tell me if I'm doing something blatantly wrong and I need to change habits. Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a Class 2-3 standpoint.

 

You've said several things here that should be addressed. First, you don't necessarily want to transfer weight off the front before you turn in. You also don't want to "snap the wheel into the turns". Your turn-in isn't late because you "try to swing the rear out a little", it's just late. Lastly, you're trying "to swing the rear out a little" so oversteer shouldn't be surprising.

 

Several people have said you need to be smooth. To expand on that, I'll paraphrase from Ross Bentley (I think). Visualize a string tied to your right big toe. The other end is tied to the bottom of the steering wheel. When you are at maximum straightline braking, the string is taut. When the string is taut, the steering wheel is straight. When you reach the turn in point, you begin to turn the wheel. This pulls your right foot off the brake at the same rate that the wheel is turning. It shouldn't be the other way around (i.e. your foot comes off the brake then you turn).

 

The front tires can do more cornering work if there's more weight on them, up to a point. If you're at max braking and turn in without lifting at all, you'll likely understeer. But if you gradually release the brake as you steer, weight will gradually transfer back to the rear. You'll maximize the cornering traction, as long as you balance the two inputs.

 

The balancing act, shifting weight in the car, is how you control the degree of understeer or oversteer. When you're braking and turning and the car begins to oversteer, reduce braking and countersteer. Not abruptly and big, smoothly and as little as possible to make the correction. Then learn from that. Next time brake 3 or 5 feet earlier and see if it makes a difference.

 

Your hands follow your eyes. If you visually fixate on your turn-in point and then, when you reach it, suddenly look toward the apex, your hands will react the same way. Suddenly.

 

Instead, on your approach to the turn, you should visually trace a smooth arc through the turn. As you reach the turn-in, your eyes should already be looking across the apex. When you do this, your hands and feet will usually react accordingly and smoothly.

 

Always try to look as far ahead as possible. Your field of view can shrink as you approach a turn but your eyes should always be looking ahead of your next move. On a straight away, look toward the next turn-in (or some point in line with it). Just before the turn-in, look toward the apex. Just before the apex, look toward the exit.

 

Think of it this way, if you're driving in a straight line, staring at the pavement directly in front of your vehicle, how do you react when a pothole appears in your field of view? Your reaction is abrupt and large (big steering input) if you have any semblance of care for the tire and wheel heading for the pothole. Now, if you're looking 500 ft in front of you and see the same pothole, how do you react? A tiny change in steering to position the car is all you'll execute.

[2wheelsmoker]

Actually, it's quite surprising this thread is still alive. First off, I want to thank everyone that's contributed. I hope others have learned from what has been said here as well. Since I first posted I've been getting as much track time as I can afford, which has been limited . I feel like I've made leaps and leaps of progress and everytime I do I think back to what has been discussed here and it all rings true.

 

In turns, it's always a struggle for me to be smooth and to be agressive. Being smooth is great feeling, but I also end up leaving a lot of time out there on the track that I could possibly tackle if I was more fearless. When I'm aggressive the car gets squirmy which takes away from my confident but betters my understanding of the track and where the traction is. So much more to learn.

 

To the poster above, I wholeheartedly agree that "looking ahead" is crucial to being smoother, something I need to work on a lot more. All this information has been priceless in terms of changing the way I perceive driving. It suprises me that more of this information isn't shared with newer drivers so they too can think about how to be better drivers.