Miata roll bar for HPDE

[mattm]

I had a question on the legality of my Brainstorm competition rollbar in my 1991 miata. I will be attending the July 7th HPDE at Mid-Ohio.

 

Pics of the bar below:

 

http://www.teamzoom.net/rollbars/images/BSP_competition1.jpg

 

http://www.teamzoom.net/rollbars/images/bsp_comp_na_pop_vii.jpg

 

Thanks

[nasaregistrar]

I had a question on the legality of my Brainstorm competition rollbar in my 1991 miata. I will be attending the July 7th HPDE at Mid-Ohio.

 

Pics of the bar below:

 

http://www.teamzoom.net/rollbars/images/BSP_competition1.jpg

 

http://www.teamzoom.net/rollbars/images/bsp_comp_na_pop_vii.jpg

 

Thanks

make sure your head, with helmet on is at least 2"below the top of the bar

[mattm]

The CCR did not indicate that the helmeted head was required to be 2 inches below the bar. No way I could get there without a race seat. Is it really required to be 2 inches under the bar with a helmet on?

[nasaregistrar]

The CCR did not indicate that the helmeted head was required to be 2 inches below the bar. No way I could get there without a race seat. Is it really required to be 2 inches under the bar with a helmet on?

It won't do any good if your head sticks up above the bar.

 

I have heard of miata guys removing the padding from the stock seats to get lower or get a race seat or get a spare stock seat to gut

[farmboy]

If this is a daily driver you may have problems in the long run with seats. The reason I say this is because the instructor likes to have the same safety as the driver.

 

I have a Miata that I have dedicated to building as a SM. An 8 point roll cage was installed, race seat on drivers side and harness on both driver and passenger. I tried to use the stock seat on the passenger seat to give me time to get through HPDE 2 and as it turns out the harness does not go over the seat back to the instructor's liking.

 

From experience, I would suggest the following for a daily driver: Get two cheap, LOL, race seats like the Kirkey economy and use the stock seat belts. This will keep you legal for daily driving and track use.

 

You can fab some metal straps to mount to the stock seat mountings in the floor and mount the racing seats to the straps. Just weld 7/8 nuts to the back side of the straps and removal of the seat is really simple.

[Frank Corkran]

Is it really required to be 2 inches under the bar with a helmet on?

 

You must pass the "broomstick" test. Your helmet must not be above a broomstick (or other rod/bar) placed across the rollbar and windshield frame. Same applies for your instructor, he doesn't want his head/spine to become your rollbar. Miatas are tough to do this with stock seats if the bar is low enough to allow using a top. Some of the Al race seat manufacturers sell specific Miata seats.

[mattm]

Thanks for all the info guys. The width of my bar is probably an issue also, so I bit the bullet and purchased a new bar so that I could do the HPDE. Next year I am planning on a race seat and with that I should be well below the bar.

 

Thanks for helping a new member out.

[Ev]

As much as I hate to say it, roll bars are not required in HPDE (see quote below). I suggest it, and also suggest it be worth while. I have complained to the powers that be as part of the safety crew, but the rules don't require it...

 

11.4.7 Roll Bars

All open cars should have a roll bar installed to help protect the occupant(s) from injury

during a roll-over. The roll bar should be able to withstand the compressional forces

involved in supporting the full weight of the car. The roll bar’s main hoop should extend

the full width of the car (except certain cars that have been approved by NASA). The

main hoop shall be one continuous piece with smooth bends and no evidence of

crimping or wall failure shall be present (i.e. should be Mandrel bends). All welds should

be of the highest possible quality, with full penetration [Ref:(15.6.15)]. All cars with roll

bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases

where the driver’s head may come in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a

seatback brace is required in conformance with section #15.6.22. The material and

minimums are as follows: (All cars with full roll cages should conform to the applicable

sections found in section #15.0.)

Vehicle weight DOM or ERW

Under 2000 lbs. 1.50" x .120”

2001 - 3500 lbs. 1.75" x .120"

Over 3500 lbs. 2.00" x .120"

Vehicle weight Alloy (CM)

Under 1500 lbs. 1.375" x .095”

1501 - 2500 lbs. 1.625" x .095"

Over 2500 lbs. 2.000" x .095"

[white_2kgt]

As much as I hate to say it, roll bars are not required in HPDE (see quote below). I suggest it, and also suggest it be worth while. I have complained to the powers that be as part of the safety crew, but the rules don't require it...

 

11.4.7 Roll Bars

All open cars should have a roll bar installed to help protect the occupant(s) from injury

during a roll-over. The roll bar should be able to withstand the compressional forces

involved in supporting the full weight of the car. The roll bar’s main hoop should extend

the full width of the car (except certain cars that have been approved by NASA). The

main hoop shall be one continuous piece with smooth bends and no evidence of

crimping or wall failure shall be present (i.e. should be Mandrel bends). All welds should

be of the highest possible quality, with full penetration [Ref:(15.6.15)]. All cars with roll

bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases

where the driver’s head may come in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a

seatback brace is required in conformance with section #15.6.22. The material and

minimums are as follows: (All cars with full roll cages should conform to the applicable

sections found in section #15.0.)

Vehicle weight DOM or ERW

Under 2000 lbs. 1.50" x .120”

2001 - 3500 lbs. 1.75" x .120"

Over 3500 lbs. 2.00" x .120"

Vehicle weight Alloy (CM)

Under 1500 lbs. 1.375" x .095”

1501 - 2500 lbs. 1.625" x .095"

Over 2500 lbs. 2.000" x .095"

 

You sure about that? The pre-tech sheet seems to require rollbars in open cars,

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/images/rules-forms/form_hpde_tech.pdf

 

also at the bottom of the HPDE page on the NASA website a roll bar is a 'requirement' for 'convertible autos',

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/index.html

[Evan]

Bill the CCR not surprisingly was written by the west coasters who from all indications and reports have lower standards on the saftey rules and procedures. Regions can specify more strict rules on top of the CCR.

Being a miata driver myself, I do know for a fact that Nasa-MA requires all convertibles to have a rollbar. And at VIR OE rollbars/hoops are not allowed, must be aftermarket. (VIR's rules)

[Ryan F.]

Evan,

 

As a National Officer all regions are under strict orders to mandate that all convertibles have rollover protection. While it does seem the CCR makes a “recommendation”, it is indeed a requirement. It appears that we need to change a word in the CCR. Nevertheless, each Regional Director has the discretion of not allowing something of they feel it is unsafe regardless of the CCR. Allowing a convertible to run without a bar, or someone that is 6’4” with their head 5” above legal hoop are perfect examples of such items that would be considered unsafe. Considering that tech requires inspection of rollbars in convertibles and a mandate has been given to our Regional Directors, I don’t see any convertibles ever running on NASA without this required protection.

 

You make this comment “west coasters who from all indications and reports have lower standards on the saftey rules and procedures.” Can you please email/PM me and let me know how you came to that conclusion? The west coast has designed, tested and implemented our safety response plan. Additionally, we have our own trained safety teams, and NorCal owns its own equipment (Fire trucks, medical gear, Hurst Tool(Jaws), and everything else one could imagine). We have also had the unfortunate job of dealing with all kinds of incidents, from fires, crashes, rollovers, medivacs, and a host of other issues. The West Coast events happen to be run by National Officers and I can confidently say that and there is no more important issue than driver safety. Not only have we made the investment in gear and personnel to assure this, our people are also highly trained and have the track record to prove it. Please do me the favor and respond to me in private how on earth you could have that impression.

[nasaregistrar]

As much as I hate to say it, roll bars are not required in HPDE (see quote below). I suggest it, and also suggest it be worth while. I have complained to the powers that be as part of the safety crew, but the rules don't require it...

 

11.4.7 Roll Bars

All open cars should have a roll bar installed to help protect the occupant(s) from injury

during a roll-over. The roll bar should be able to withstand the compressional forces

involved in supporting the full weight of the car. The roll bar’s main hoop should extend

the full width of the car (except certain cars that have been approved by NASA). The

main hoop shall be one continuous piece with smooth bends and no evidence of

crimping or wall failure shall be present (i.e. should be Mandrel bends). All welds should

be of the highest possible quality, with full penetration [Ref:(15.6.15)]. All cars with roll

bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases

where the driver’s head may come in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a

seatback brace is required in conformance with section #15.6.22. The material and

minimums are as follows: (All cars with full roll cages should conform to the applicable

sections found in section #15.0.)

Vehicle weight DOM or ERW

Under 2000 lbs. 1.50" x .120”

2001 - 3500 lbs. 1.75" x .120"

Over 3500 lbs. 2.00" x .120"

Vehicle weight Alloy (CM)

Under 1500 lbs. 1.375" x .095”

1501 - 2500 lbs. 1.625" x .095"

Over 2500 lbs. 2.000" x .095"

Bill,

 

You are corect about the national CCR However the regional Supps take precedence over the CCR and it is required at least in the MA region for ragtopps to have an AFTERMARKET roll bar that passes the broomstick test Frank mentioned.So an S2000 cannot get by with the factory hoops.

The miata with factory seats has a tough time too

[Ev]

As much as I hate to say it, roll bars are not required in HPDE (see quote below). I suggest it, and also suggest it be worth while. I have complained to the powers that be as part of the safety crew, but the rules don't require it...

 

11.4.7 Roll Bars

All open cars should have a roll bar installed to help protect the occupant(s) from injury

during a roll-over. The roll bar should be able to withstand the compressional forces

involved in supporting the full weight of the car. The roll bar’s main hoop should extend

the full width of the car (except certain cars that have been approved by NASA). The

main hoop shall be one continuous piece with smooth bends and no evidence of

crimping or wall failure shall be present (i.e. should be Mandrel bends). All welds should

be of the highest possible quality, with full penetration [Ref:(15.6.15)]. All cars with roll

bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases

where the driver’s head may come in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a

seatback brace is required in conformance with section #15.6.22. The material and

minimums are as follows: (All cars with full roll cages should conform to the applicable

sections found in section #15.0.)

Vehicle weight DOM or ERW

Under 2000 lbs. 1.50" x .120”

2001 - 3500 lbs. 1.75" x .120"

Over 3500 lbs. 2.00" x .120"

Vehicle weight Alloy (CM)

Under 1500 lbs. 1.375" x .095”

1501 - 2500 lbs. 1.625" x .095"

Over 2500 lbs. 2.000" x .095"

Bill,

 

You are corect about the national CCR However the regional Supps take precedence over the CCR and it is required at least in the MA region for ragtopps to have an AFTERMARKET roll bar that passes the broomstick test Frank mentioned.So an S2000 cannot get by with the factory hoops.

The miata with factory seats has a tough time too

 

Huh.. I guess that's recent. At the Shenandoah event early this year, that wasn't being enforced. I had a long descussion with an unnamed official and was told to shut my "pie hole" (nicely though) on the roll bar thing.

 

Good to hear NASA MA has smartend up. Rememeber, I will be the one that has to clean up the mess. I don't want that kind of mess...

[sonny]

Beyond the Nat'l CCR, most tracks won't allow open top cars without rollbars. Most don't state the 2" broomstick test so unfortunately, many OEM hoops are allowed. But Regional rules can supercede both the Nat'l CCR & local track rules as long as they aren't of a lower safety level.

 

As others have stated, the spirit of the CCR requires a RB that has the driver & px passing the broomstick test by 2 inches. The wording just has to be changed slightly so there cannot be an alternate interpretation of the rule.