beck49 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I have been waiting a year to state the following... I had hoped this issue would work itself out with time, but... As a former part-time racer and now a great fan of 944-Spec racing, I must say that many in the Arizona Spec crowd of are easily the most myopic and self-destructive individuals that have put rubber to the road. That said, many of that same "crowd" are friends of mine and I stand in amazement at how they rail against each other with the rhetoric of cheating. The act of cheating and the veiled (or not) accusations of cheating are equally destructive in nature. The act of cheating lowers the bar of competition. The rhetoric or accusations of cheating lowers the bar of our character and the nature of the series... Which do we value more? For the many of you that have stated directly to me that you are certain "Joe Blow" is cheating - back it up and tear him down. You have nothing to lose with your certainty. The truth is you don't want to risk the cost of being wrong. You would rather cast insults from a distance and in the process damage the sport you love and insult your peers. Rules that are never tested or enforced are, of course, useless. The best of rules are flawed. They are meant to be tested, interpreted and revised. Left unchecked, the accusation that someone is cheating is nothing more than an idle insult to the sport and the accused. It is the equivalent of judgment without trail; it is guilty until proven innocent. With less accusations and more action, I sense this series would be one of the best. I would suggest that for the betterment of the series, everyone put-up or shut-up and simply enjoy the drive. Is "Joe Blow" cheating?... I don't think so. He is just driving the pants off the rest of you and having a great time in the process. This is an assumption you all must make until proven otherwise. Regards, Bob Beck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWho Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 New to the series and sorry to hear there's an "apparent” willingness to judge than be judged thy self. To err is human, to break/bend rules is cheating, and we all know, no one likes a cheater. This series is as simplistic as they get (and affordable). Not running a mile competitively I joined to find out how good my driving skills were against others in “like” cars. As Joe said, “the best rules are flawed”. Not knowing many of you, I hope this is just an accusation and not a precedence that follows. Hopefully, this isn’t becoming a forum/class for cheaters but those that enjoy the competitiveness of the class and what it has to offer. It’s the metal of the man, not the machine that makes this class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ Coupe Jason Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Obie One! (Bob Beck) Yes I might be the young Pad-a-wan – But I have to disagree with you; just as I have said over and over is that we are having repeating issues – Many times you and I and other have discussed that certain things were occurring in this series and yet people were not be called on it! . Well that time is here and Now!! I pointed out and stated Exactly what Chas Werkin was and has done that is not in compliance to the rules of 944-spec. This is a issue of choice not finger pointing or anything else – it is time for these people to make a decision on weather or not the classing of 944-spec is the correct one for them or not. The rules are clear simple and concise either you adhere to them or not, if you do then GREAT! Or if not get out of this class! Its simple no questions no accusations do it or don’t its there choice – but these days are coming to an end. I don’t want to be a butt about this but I do have a large interest in this org. and I WILL NOT stand for the attitude and blatant disregard of the rules of this org and the series in which this is run! So be warned all. We will be watching and we will be enforcing. This conversation is over I will be locking all topics that are directly related to this! I will leave this post on but will be deleting this and other post come this weekend. Read up!! Sorry buddies I hate to be the Forum Nazi! Jason PS to all Cali drivers and SoCal director this is a AZ issue when a national series comes online this will concern you - keep up the good work and keep striving to build the series that we are trying to preserve here in AZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck49 Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 Jason, I don't mean to labor on about this subject - but where exactly do we disagree? I make three primary statements in my post: 1) I state, "The rhetoric of cheating is destructive."-- You must agree with me on this to some degree or you would not pull these topics from the forum. You have recently even pulled the "Cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater..." topic in which you participated and re-named. Heck, to add to my point, your SoCal guy has requested that you remove topics, as you stated to Chas:"I deleted the topic due to an underline (sic) request of Tim – the SoCal Series Dir, and who frankly is doing a better job bringing new people to the group." 2) I state, "Put up or shut-up."--- This is exactly what you say you are now going to do. I applaud you if you do so. 3- I state, "Is "Joe Blow" cheating?... I don't think so. He is just driving the pants off the rest of you and having a great time in the process. This is an assumption you all must make until proven otherwise."--- If you don't agree with this one you better reconsider your position in the series. If you have proof or a good suspicion than nail the guy. If not, give him the benefit of doubt and race on. What are we disagreeing on here? Next, you seem to be a little focused on Chas and he is not in my topic. His car may be out of spec. He is a dear friend of mind, but I don't care about his car. I think it more appropriate if you settle individual cases by phone or in-person. Your customer base just wants to have fun and this ain't fun.... Finally, you state, "The rules are clear simple and concise either you adhere to them or not....I WILL NOT stand for the attitude and blatant disregard of the rules of this org and the series in which this is run! So be warned all. We will be watching and we will be enforcing." This is not true. The rules may be simple but they are not concise. The truth is, no rules or laws are simple or concise. This is why we have courts and amendments to laws on an on-going basis. The accusump issue is a great example of a rule challenged and reconsidered. I believe that, with a little effort, most of the cars in AZ can be found out of spec by the letter of the rules. HOWEVER, the spirit of the rules ARE simple and concise, and that is what you should enforce. I hope this works out well and for the better of the series. Beck P.S. - I tend to believe that the larger goal is to avoid topics like this, not edit/pull them down. Hopefully, this discussion will lead to less accusations and less cheating. Short of lewd or insulting comments, being a "Topic NAZI", as you call yourself, is a serious matter. Removing a topic should not be taken lightly, and one shouldn't be removed because someone regards the topic as somehow unacceptable for public consumption. This is especially important since you, the board moderator, are neither unbiased nor personally unaffected by this overall discussion - whether it be in reference to your 944 or your business, NASA. I regard this, or any forum, as just that, a place where a public discussion is held. Pulling a topic should be reserved for those that cross the boundaries of good taste or those that "flame" - simply disagreeing with someone's opinion hardly seems like a legitimate reason to delete a topic. And deleting "difficult" topics and shielding or not disclosing these issues to potential members is verging on fraud. It's like selling your 944 spec to a newbie and not suggesting he keep an eye of the rod bearings I'm out... Beck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ Coupe Jason Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 As I said before, I hate this conversation and I aswell think it is distructive to the series! I guess disagreement was not the best term to use. But frankly I wish you would not have brought back up the topic. I understand your point of deleting posts, yet I do have a vested interest in this issue so if need be I will and have deleted certian topics before and will be deleting this one shortly! Lets close this issue, I stated what we are going to do from now on. If your car is not set up for 944-spec your class will be changed for you! This conversation is over. hopefully we are going to move on and close this issue at least for now. Later Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-spec#09 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Jason I agree with Bob on this. I think censoring or deleting posts is inappropriate and should not be done unless there is clear slander (flaming) or a highly inappropriate topic. This is a forum for discussion and, not having had time to check it that regularly, I would like to see what has been said without fear that it will disappear before I can read it. I also agree with Bob (and you) that the discussion and inuendos about cheating should stop. The spec rules say if it isn't specifically allowed you can't do it. Granted there are some things that do not give a racing advantage and should be allowed but that should be requested by racers and decided by the director. If they want to allow penalties that is at their discretion. We need to stop arguments and try to get along. It is detrimental to the class and some people are leaving, perhaps in part because of this. New classes always have growing pains and we need to sort things out in a friendly way. I would rather quit the series than lose friends over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtbracr1 Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I am of the opinion that discussion on this topic is a good thing. If it is not brought out into the open, then when and where will it be discussed? I think cheating is a valid issue in a spec series that needs to be discussed and it takes many people to enforce this. Peer pressure is a wonderful thing. I don't think we are all as far apart on this issue as it seems. I believe that everyone that has participated in this discussion is truly interested in seeing this series improve. Bob, your post was correct in many ways. We have discussed this issue on many occasions at the track and otherwise and I feel that your interest is truly genuine and unbiased. While I think we disagree on methods involved, I believe that we all want the same thing, a 944 Spec racing series built on trust and good people that is successful. I think we have that here. Let's try and not miss the true point in all of this. -Tyler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Good man, Tyler. Run with the ball-IN THAT DIRECTION. Over and out, TC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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