nkwright Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I'm sure this has been addressed in the past but I need clarification. Can the doors be gutted (cut out everything leaving only the outer shell) ? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 It is my understanding that you can do this but only if you have a NasCar style car where the cage bends into the door opening. I have this in my car. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-spec#09 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I don't think there are any prohibitions for removing some of the interior sheet metal in the door as long as you do not remove the steel bar that runs from the front to the back on the driver's side. I don't think it is necessary to have a NASCAR style cage that bends into this area (of course if you DO have this cage you MUST cut away the door sheet metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Neal, How are you guys coming along with # 69?? Make sure you read the NASA rules regarding this. Input from this forum is helpful and appreciated, but it's not a substitute for the rules and holds no weight at tech inspection when you fail. Chris Benbow just got his door bars approved by Ryan. They were a slight variation on the NASCAR theme mentioned in the rules, but were more than adequately safe in design and installation. He has digital pics of them. I'd like to get some of these on my car as well. BTW, I offered David a digitally printed windshield banner background. It fades from dark blue on the outer edges to a lighter blue in the center. FREE. It just looks good. Then you can put whatever you want on top of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkwright Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 We're coming along very well. The car has been fully gutted, engine rebuilt, bearings changed, and all suspension components should arrive Friday. We won't be making the March 6th date. Instead, we are going to Willow in Mar 13-14 with the Ferrari- Panterra club (aka West Coast Racing) for a shakedown. It's a great event with tons of track time for only $200.00. They even have a race on Sat evening for all licensed racers with a fully prepped racecar. I have done it 3 times now and have always had a blast. Let me know if anyone is interested and I will forward the info as it always sells out. As far as the doors, It seems as though it's one of those "if it doesn't say it don't do it" kind of situations, or maybe not? Rule 16.2.6 reads "All interior items may be removed except where otherwise noted". There's no notation that makes reference to the doors or the factory bar. We're going to gut them and do the Nascar bar. I think it's safer and offers no performance advantage. Hopefully this won't be an issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 That's good news, Neal. I KNOW you can drive and I can't wait to mix it up with you. You don't have to have the car fully up to spec to come race, Neal. You just can't be OVER spec. Bring the car to Fontana. Remember, I ran all last year with half a suspension and had a blast! You're right, this shouldn't be an issue, BUT removing interior components does not include the door sheet metal! That's covered in the NASA rule section regarding the installation of the cage. It's ok, but it ain't no "interior component." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkwright Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 Ok, I was looking at the rules at 944-spec.com. Should I refer to the NASA rules instead? I just don't want to have to undue the cage to meet the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Right. The 944-spec rules govern performance. The NASA rules govern safety. I sent an email saying that belts and window nets have to be replaced every 2 years now, also. AUTOPOWER will sell us belts for around $150 and will reweb those same belts for $ 50.00. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benbow Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Allright, Now I need clarification. My impression is that we could completely gut (including interior sheet metal) both the driver and passenger side doors. I specifically posted to this forum and received an OK from Jason Boles on this matter. The NASA rules clearly do not support this move but I was given the explanation from Jason that several other cars in our class have already done this so it is OK. The implication was that this would be a class specific modification allowed in the 944 spec rules. I have E mailed Dan Webb about this potential conflict in the rules several weeks ago but have received no response. Tim, you have seen my car in this condition and made no comment about it's not being legal (though you have repeatedly commented on my throttle cam!!) Where do we stand on this rule? Could we please clarify it in writing? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfoley Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Tim, I'm about to have my cage installed and I'm copying Chris' car. I need to know before Monday or it will be too late for me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgrow Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Reading pages 61-62 of the 2004 Edition of NASA CCR's, paragraph 15.5.12 is pretty specific about what you can and cannot do regarding doors and side impact protection. Namely that NASCAR bars and "gutting of the door" can only be done on the driver side. In the absence of "official" class interpretation and the fact that no class rules (v2.0 2/12/03) supersede this, I would assume the question relating to safety equipment should be directed to NASA; namely Ryan Flaherty (or designate) who will perform the annual tech. He can tell you whether or not NASA will have a problem with dual-side NASCAR-bar cages. If the passenger side bars don't contribute towards chassis stiffening and therefore don't violate the intent of the rules (Paragraph 15.5.2), perhaps its a non-issue. Again, get Ryan to quickly opine on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWho Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 We need an opinion quick or there will be the opportunity for protest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benbow Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Jeff, I don't think that this is a NASA issue. It is a class issue. I don't think that Ryan would choose to intervene here (nor do I think he should) Many of the cars in our class have been running with a modification that is in potential violation of the NASA rules. There is a provision in the NASA rules that allows for this modification if it is sanctioned by the specific class rules. The class rules do state in 16.2.6 : "all interior items may be removed except where otherwise noted" Perhaps this is adequate? The assistant regional director (Jason Boles) has stated publicly that the class does sanction this modification. I am operating under the assumption that the director's interpretation of 16.2.6 allows for the gutting of both doors. Nevertheless it would be nice if that could be formalized in the next version of the written rules. Prior to our first competetive event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkwright Posted February 14, 2004 Author Share Posted February 14, 2004 Thanks to all for the responses. We're going to do the nascar bar on the drivers side. It's safe, provides easy in and out for the driver, and any weight taken out with the sheet metal and the factory bar is replaced. Also, the weight is replaced in the same area. Therefore, there is no weight distribution or balance advantage. I would hope none of the competitors would be so inclined to protest something of this nature since it appears to be a grey area at this point. It seems to me it should be a non-issue. I only brought it up because of the recent discussions of rules and specs. We're here to have fun and race not to be concerned with petty items like this that have zero effect on car performance. This comment is not meant to be in disrespect of the rules. So please no snide comments. Rather, it is a safety and comfort issue. I've had this style of cage on my turbo racecar for years. It really does make it easier to get in and out. It also makes it easier to grab the lap belt on the left side. What's that old saying about not being able to see the forest for the trees.... Can't wait to run with you guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgrow Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Chris, My only point is that drivers have to pass NASA tech inspection. Frankly, I doubt your cage would pose any kind of problem and would hope that it is a non-event. In my experience, they didn't consider class rules. I had to make a change to my cage to be in line w/ NASA rules in order to pass tech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Chris, I've seen several cars with both doors gutted. It's doesn't matter to me either way. My point was that it seems a strange interpretation of the "removal of interior items" phrase. Whoever said the rules are gray, is correct in many aspects. I would like to rewrite the entire set of rules to make them more clear. Obviously they need work or we wouldn't be having any problems, besides the biggest problem of people just not reading them. Joe Paluch and I just emailed each other back and forth over the last 3 days working on the track width rule. It's tough to get the wording as short as possible, yet include everything needed, while closing all the loopholes for possible "interpretation." We should probably have a specific "lightening" rule to include the door sheet metal, battery swap that most people do(not in the rules) and leaving some things in, such as the spare tire, tools, jack, to get better weight distribution in the rear. This is legal because it's not weight added, you just chose not to remove that item. The rules need work and you're right to ask for clarification. NASA won't care about both doors being gutted. That's a class thing. However on the driver's side, you'll need those NASCAR bars to replace the door metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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